Yvonne Heimann [00:00:00]:
And we are back with another episode of She Is A Leader, as you can see, comfortable, and with comfortable Matthew somewhere over there. Um, if you did not see what I was doing because you're listening on audio, I really recommend you should watch these on YouTube. My face is hilarious on its own because I'm funny.
Wow, I didn't even get a g- I didn't even get a grin out of you on that one. Why are we... Now I'm getting a laugh out of him
Yvonne Heimann [00:00:35]:
You know, with those episodes when I bring, when I bring Matthew in, it's usually related to me doing some work, me realizing, and I think this episode actually has its root in multiple things. Number one, you came in for my team to do a training on communication. So Luby was always like, "Oh my God, I wanna do this and I wanna do that," and she had a whole bunch of ideas of follow-up trainings and other things we want to do and want to implement.
And then I had a situation where my intended communication didn't quite come across as I had hoped, so the impact was different. And there was a lot of emotions on my side, there was a lot of emotions on the other side. There was a little bit of work we have done, and that triggered the idea for this episode, talking about impact and intent, talking about communication, talking about what do you do when helping people, when not helping people.
And with this I'll just let Matthew start because he knows where he wants to take these learnings and all the stuff that we have worked through.
Matthew Riven [00:01:54]:
And some of the lessons are, and thank you, always glad to be back. Some of the lessons are offering help, when to do it, when not to. And, uh, all we can say for certain is there were emotions on this side.
We cannot say it's a fantasy that there were emotions on the other side. It may have been just a very quick, easy choice with no emotion. That's a fantasy on our side, that there was any emotion there. So do you wanna give a quick little background of what, uh, uh, what began the quick call to me going, "Hey, what do I do? What did I do?"
Yvonne Heimann [00:02:31]:
Yeah. So, um, I had signed up for an event. I had paid for an event to go fly to. I had already talked with them beforehand and had given, "Hey, there's a tech issue right here." So I felt fairly comfortable being like, "Hey, um, the location, maybe you wanna be a little bit more specific." I had plans, needed to change my plans, and had emailed them based on just wanting to give feedback.
We don't know what we don't know. Didn't think twice about it because it was somewhat of a relationship established. Feedback. I thought. Feedback was already, um, received beforehand on a different level, but feedback was already received beforehand. And I'm like, "Hey, by the way, you might wanna consider..."
I did not say might. "Something to consider next time". So there was a specific language where I realized later on I could have also said, "You might want to consider this next time," rather than saying you actually had that ... something to consider next time. Don't know if it would've made a difference. Right.
But pretty much then everything, everything was fine on my end. I had just given some feedback and then what, a few days later, whatever, I get an email of, "Hey, thank you for your thoughts. I don't think, I don't think you fit into this room. I'm really paying attention to my boundaries and the energy in the room.
You should have your money back within 7 to 10 days." And that was then I had a moment of what the fuck? What the fuck? In the gym on the treadmill, nonetheless. And originally, my first initial reaction was like, "Fuck, if you don't, if you don't wanna hear any feedback, then I don't wanna be in the room."
If that's your approach And also came around based on social media and based on some social media behind-the-scenes information that I have knowing the energy that's probably right now in their office putting on this event that's a fantasy. We don't know. I don't know, but went down the road of, "You know what? Yeah, I can see where they're coming from."
Matthew Riven [00:04:50]:
Part of the issue was, which I, which I understand, when you're attending an event in a large city and they say 'It is in this large city", well, you don't know if it's, they're just calling it the large city and it's in a nearby suburb, if it's across town, it's on this side of town, and you'll get more location after you sign up or you'll get a better location closer to the event.
The problem with that logistically, of course, is I can fly in. I know what airport I need to fly into, but I don't know if I am where do I get the hotel or the Airbnb or a regular BnB? Do I get it in this side of town and what I thought was going to be five minutes from the event is now fifty-five minutes during rush hour to the event?
So you needed to know the information.
Yvonne Heimann [00:05:38]:
My perception was downtown.
Matthew Riven [00:05:40]:
Right. And so you got the information that the event was in suburb, and then it was, well, my hotel's in a terrible location. I'm gonna have to go back and forth and this kind of thing. And the request would say, "Hey, you know, next, next time. Just be clearer in the communication a little bit clearer would, would have helped." And some of it was I see their point of I'm gonna be providing this event, and here I have somebody coming in, and the first thing I'm hearing from them, they may or may not remember you from your previous interaction. It may have been somebody else you were dealing with.
I don't know. The first thing they came in with is this is a very intense, what it sounded like, very intense event, a lot of energy and a lot of networking and a lot of great minds in the room, and you potentially. Yeah came across as I'm gonna critique everything that you were doing at all times, even when I'm sitting in the room at the event.
Yep. And they didn't want that in the room, which is understandable. Um, so your intention of saying, "Hey, in the future, for the people who are going to be attending your event wanna know where to stay," you're saying, "It's in this city, and it'll be even if you don't wanna release it." And we both attended events where after you sign up, you'll get the location is in this major city, you wanna look for hotels in this area or this neighborhood. That would have helped greatly. So the intent of what you were providing was, "Hey, next time for people to make it easier," because it's all about getting rid of hurdles. The less hurdles you have, the more people will attend your events. So your intention was fine. The impact, it's hard to know what your impact is going to be, 'cause that's on the other person.
What you need to do, and we've talked about this a lot, is rupture and repair. This is a rupture, and the repair in this case was, "I don't want you in the room." There was, there was no intent to learn anything from you, what you were meaning by that. No intent to be like, "Hey, we're doing our best. What was the issue?
What's the problem? What do you need?" There was none of that. They're busy, they're putting on a big event. I understand. They're... They might not need to. They might not need to.
Matthew Riven [00:07:50]:
And so some of the lesson here, and you've talked about this jokingly with me sometimes of, it's my German background. If you want feedback, I will ask you if you really want feedback.
And you've said that.
And, and some of it in this case was, we've talked often, even on some of these podcasts, on the drama triangle, the Karpman drama triangle, which is, uh, persecutor, victim, and rescuer. And in this case, you could have come across as a rescuer. "I'm providing you information you did not ask for. I'm going to rescue you from yourself." Or you could have come across as a persecutor of, "Boy, did you do this wrong, and I'm gonna point it out to you I know that was not your intent. The recipient did not know that was not your intent. And so whatever you came across as, they turned around and they can look at it either as potentially they came across as persecutor in saying, "I don't even want you at my event."
Or what they had done is they really might have come from adult. The only way to get out of the drama triangle. Is to not play ... is to not play the game. Yes. Is to step out and come from adult. Very much their adult could have been, we've dealt with this before. Somebody comes with this attitude, they don't know your attitude at the event.
Might have shown up and going, "Boy, this is a complaint and this was done badly and I would have done this better." And so they didn't want that in the room. So they could have come at this from an adult standpoint. I know you reached back out to them and said, "Hey, apologies. Intention was this." And we'll see.
Impact was certainly somewhat different Could they have overreacted in this case? Yes, they might have, but I'm not talking with them. Yep. So I don't know if they came from an overreaction or from their adult. From this side, you were coming from your adult, but it probably came across as some part of the triangle, and these things happen.
Yvonne Heimann [00:09:52]:
Heck, I had these things happen where, where my first reaction of seeing someone like, "Fuck you. Who are you to tell me how to run my business?" I get it. So I do get where they're coming from. I do understand that, again, intent and impact is not the same, and however the story ends, we are... I am still in the middle of it.
I haven't heard back on the email. Don't expect to till, till in a few days. Um, I don't know how the story ends. We'll see. There'll be an update. Maybe. I think where it came from me, where I had the what the fuck moment is nobody needs to, nobody needs to deal with it. You're completely right with, yeah, you stay out of drama without by simply not engaging, right? Yeah. Um, we've all seen some kind of drama shows at some point. Um, what we, what we internally took from this and pretty much what I messaged Luby right away, I'm like I don't want to work in those black and whites. So yes, I'm not gonna join a drama triangle. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole of entertaining somebody how to run my business.
In the end, it's everybody else's decision what to do with the feedback, right? In a situation like this, we don't have huge events or whatever, so who knows how I'm gonna be looking at this in the future. Right now, with how we talk and how we do, we make the decision to ask at least one question, meaning follow up once.
What was the intent behind it? Is this a drama triangle? Is this just somebody we don't wanna deal with, and they're getting blocked, they're getting off the email list? Whatever we need to do, we are not allowing that energy in the room, and I don't wanna assume in the moment.
Matthew Riven [00:11:55]:
There are any number of ways that this could've been handled differently.
Well, again there are many ways it could've been handled better. There are many ways it could've been handled a lot worse actually, and there are just many ways it could've just been handled differently. A little bit of question of where are you coming from? What do you need? What do you want?
They may have had many of these issues in the past where they've come and just kind of had the realization of, oh, we should've trusted our gut and not had this person in the room, cause they just made it... And you've done these events. Yep. I think most of your listeners, whether in personal life or work life, have done these events where, oh my goodness, one person. Just based on how they. Just based on the general attitude. Brings their whole world, Or one person having a bad day- Oh, I get it changes the energy in the room. Yep. And it's just, oh, if that one person hadn't said that one thing, or, or, or if we had just not invited Uncle Bob to Thanksgiving once again. That's cause he's got the wrong politics, and he drinks, and whatever it is. Just don't invite Uncle Bob. They've had these people in the room before, and so maybe it was a once bitten, twice shy.
Maybe it was, "I should've trusted my gut last time, and I'm trusting my gut this time." Uh, yes, they could've reached out and said, "Hey, where are you coming from?" They also could've looked up and been like, "You know what, gotta tell you, no, and we're declining, and, you know, keeping your money, let alone you'll get your money back."
Fortunately it was early enough, airfare, hotels, all that stuff is taken care of. I think some of the nuance here and the takeaway here, and whether this is the relationship dynamics, even the power dynamics or the games that, the drama, that whether it's your personal life or the work life, the interactions you have with guests, clients, customers, managers, subordinates, children, parents, lovers, siblings All of this depends on asking the questions.
Matthew Riven [00:13:51]:
What did you mean by that? Where are you coming from? What's your attitude? What is your intention? Because your impact was pretty negative. Did you intend it to be that way? 'Cause we need to talk about this before we let you in the room. Or, "Dear Uncle Bob, what was your intention before we let you into next year's Thanksgiving dinner?"
Whatever it is. Or talking to your partner and saying, "Hey, hon, that thing you said this morning on your way out the door, it's been burning me all day. We need to talk about it." Or looking at your boss and saying... I had one a few weeks ago where my boss is like, "Hey, we need to schedule a one-on-one."
It was a not a standard one-on-one time, and I just had this, "Oh my God, what did I do wrong?".
Yvonne Heimann [00:14:40]:
We all had those moments where it's like, wait, out of the pattern, this is out of the norm. What is burning? What's wrong? What's... Yeah. What did I do? What did I get caught at?
Matthew Riven [00:14:48]:
We've all been there. We've all been there. And, you know, workmate just, you know, boss looks at me and just goes, "Dude," he says, "just, we missed a couple. I need you to catch up, so I tossed one on the calendar. Nothing out of the ordinary. Next time you're freaking out, just like give me a heads-up." Ask the questions, communicate better. Don't sit in your anxiety.
Don't sit in your panic. If somebody else is engaging in the drama triangle, the only way to get out of games is to not play. And when you find yourself like, "Oh my God, I'm acting totally like the victim here. I need to stop doing that," and instead of switching over to rescuing somebody or persecuting somebody, just stop playing.
We all know drama queens, drama kings as well. Guess what? Bad things in your life are gonna happen to you. It's all about how we react to it. And I'm not saying always be flat, have no emotions whatsoever. It's okay. Oh, yeah, no, I've got those. No. It's okay to have emotion. It's okay to... You know, anger is fine.
Anger sets boundaries. You're disappointed. It's okay to be upset about something. It's okay to be angry or happy or sad or afraid, depending on what's going on. But you don't have to dive into it headfirst and just enjoy the drama. Drama's optional. I'm sorry this happened. I know you're looking forward to the event.
I'm, I'm, I'm sorry it happened. I'm sorry the- And it does happen, I know. And it may happen. It may happen another time. It may not happen again. This may be an indication that you don't wanna be in the room. It may be an amazing room that you wanna get back into. But it was a great lesson on, um, what's a simple correction here, at least in my mind.
I've got some feedback if you're interested in hearing it. I look forward to the event And just offering that. Or maybe after the event saying, "Hey, I just want to let you know when you said big city, it helps if you're just like, if you're getting a hotel room or needing to come in from out of town, look for a hotel room in this area."
That would've helped a ton.
Yvonne Heimann [00:16:53]:
In this specific situation, it's, it's not even, it's not really a big physical difference. So they're both neighborhoods, they're still really, really close. However, at that time, it is now going to be a difference between a 10-minute Uber ride and a 45-minute Uber ride. That is significant even if they're close by, I mean close by to rush hour traffic.
Because one, from the planned downtown idea of in that city, whereas the other one, and it's even without, without thinking about rush hour traffic, those two locations are just, felt completely different. It's a complete different market. It's a complete different people. It's just a complete different feeling.
Matthew Riven [00:17:40]:
And there may be any number of 100 reasons why they didn't want to say we're in this suburb instead of this big city. I, I've been to lots of events. Yeah. We've talked about some of them where, uh, the name of the event was not the city, it was the state, or it was a nickname for the city, or it was these kinds of things, and you don't know exactly where the event is supposed to be, uh, for safety and a lot of other, the other reasons as well.
But in the long run, this is both, they could have done that better and made it easier for the attendees, I said before, less hurdles. And at the same token, it's the lesson on whether you're giving somebody feedback on event or giving somebody feedback at work. Um, it's one of the things in the acting community is you never give feedback to another actor.
The director does that. That's the director's job. It's not your place to give feedback to anybody else. You got workmates that are gonna be very sensitive to that, whether you're a manager or subordinate or equal weight in the workplace, they're gonna be sensitive to the feedback, and it's just a question of are you interested in feedback?
And it might be, "You know what? Yeah, I'd love to, if you've got some options, this is, I'm struggling here." Or it might be, "You know what? Right now I'm not in a place to hear it. Write it down, save it for me. Next week is fine. I need to get this out right now. Now's not the right time." Or, "No, I don't want feedback from you."
All those are viable options. Says nothing about you.
Yvonne Heimann [00:19:07]:
Yeah, and I think that's where I fell back into an old habit. Like, simply assuming that people handle things like I do. 'Cause it's like, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. So I appreciate feedback as long as you then let me do my decision.
So we have a huge. But not everybody does. We have a huge email list, right? There is broken links, there is so many things that can go wrong. If you don't tell me, I don't know. I can't check everything. I can't track everything. So I always approach everything with, "Yes, please let me know. If I don't know, I don't know, and if you don't ask, the answer is always no."
So I have this approach for me and the business of email me, message me, tell me what's going on, and then let me decide what to do with it. So it's this, yeah, I wanna hear all the things and then let me deal with it. Where it's, there, there is that belief of, "Okay, don't tell me how to run my business. It's my business."
There is so many things that feed into this where, why I make decisions, how I make decisions, and I don't want that to stop any kind of feedback or any kind of conversation. And I fell into this habit of assuming because I run it that way and I know it's my decision, it's like if you try to tell me how to run my business, try again.
You're not paying the bills. Not everybody wants their business that way.
Matthew Riven [00:20:48]:
Not everybody thinks that way. Not everybody runs their business that way. Not everybody thinks that way. Uh, one of the first things that I did on this episode is, is you said during the intro that, you know, there are emotions on my side, there are emotions on their side.
You know what? Maybe they weren't. As I said, that's a fantasy. Therapeutically, we call that a fantasy. It's not those kinds of fantasies, but it's a fantasy. We don't know what the other person is thinking, and the only way to do that is to check out the fantasy. I have a fantasy that you were just wickedly pissed at me about that thing I did the other day, and you're like, "Dude, I don't even remember what you're talking about.
No, that just flew over my head. I don't... No, we're fine." And I think we all had situations like that. We've all had situations like that, and it's just always a good reminder that for lots of things, we talked about it during the communication call I did with your team, in that if it's in your head, it's not in everybody else's head.
How many times I can't read your mind. I can't read your mind. We do that with our partners, and we're like dead at the camera right now going, how many times has that happened to you at work where your boss was like, "Oh, hey, how did you not know that thing?" Because it's in your head. Because it's in your head and you've never emailed it, you never told anybody about it, you didn't
I had a, a business partner years ago that the time of the meeting changed, and I never heard, and I walked in and it was forty-five minutes. I, 'cause I was 15 minutes early, I was forty-five minutes late for an hour-long meeting, and he never told me that it changed. Showed him all the texts, showed him all the emails, showed this, that, and everything else.
Matthew Riven [00:22:25]:
He had the biggest problem with what's in his head wasn't in everybody else's head. We can't read minds. The best thing to do is- But hon, did you take the trash out? You didn't tell me to. Now, in that case, yeah, maybe I should have known because it's piled over and there's stuff next to it. That's another story entirely.
But at the office, the things that are going unsaid, the, the things that cause resentments and problems in every relationship, whether they are boardroom-based or bedroom-based, ask the question, check out the fantasy, have amazing communication, and that's where everything starts with is have better communication.
You brought me in to talk to your entire team about communication. We don't know what's in their head, we only know what's in your head. Your team doesn't know what's in your head when it comes to a project, the fact that you have an image of how things get laid out. No, you don't want to, not a fan of the term, but you don't wanna mansplain.
You don't wanna over explain. I don't wanna micromanage. You don't wanna micromanage. However, you need to make sure that everybody's on the same page. And if that means we're going into great detail about what I've been told because you weren't at that meeting, so let me tell you what I've been, what, what I've been told.
And I'll have the note takers transcribe it. We'll have an email to it or something. That way everybody knows, and so I'm not coming back and saying, "Where the hell were you? The meeting was at 11:00 AM, and you showed up at 11:45." Yeah. "Oh my God, we can't do that. You never told me." Communicate better and be open to communication.
And when it comes to that is you don't just look at somebody and say, "Are you pissed at me?" It would help if I... You were just like, "Hey, I need to check something out. Are you mad at me?" And to start with, and I should have, and I did that actually wrong. It's, "Hey, can I check something out with you?" And then wait for the answer.
Don't ask, "Can we talk?" Right. So- Don't ask, "Can we talk?" It's, "Hey, can I check something out with you?" The answer might be no, 'cause they're super busy. They don't have any time to deal with you right now. Or frankly I'm in a great power right now ... they're still so mad about what happened earlier because yes, they are mad, that they don't wanna talk about it right now.
Matthew Riven [00:24:42]:
And it could be that, "Yeah, I do wanna talk. I'd, I'd love to hear your fantasy. I wanna make sure that you're okay, but can we do it in 20 minutes when I'm done dealing with X, Y, Z?" So, "Hey, it's fantasy. I need something to check out with you. Now's a good time? Great. Are you still mad about that thing?
Yeah, okay. I, I wanna talk about it. I'm sorry you're really, really pissed about that thing." Or hopefully, "What thing are you talking about?" So have that communication and have that openness, whether it's, like I said, boardroom or bedroom.
Yvonne Heimann [00:25:14]:
And that's one of the reasons why, why I brought you in to, to talk with the team, to train the team, because I've also realized, like I've done a lot of this communication work in my personal life where there, there were a lot of fantasies in my past life because I also never voiced anything.
There was a lot of resentment, there was a lot of fantasies. There's still fantasies, don't get me wrong. On past stories, stories happen in my head, um, where I imagine things and I also wanted to bring that into the company, the communication work that I have done of I don't, I don't wanna say I don't have com- I don't have emotions connected to it anymore.
I don't take it personal anymore when somebody comes to me with their perception. That's what it is. Yeah. I don't take it personal anymore when somebody says, "Hey, that hurt me." I used to fall into how, "Oh my God, I'm a bad person," and all of this BS, right? Through the work that we have done, I'm in a position at this point where I'm like, I understand the difference between intent and impact, and I also understand that there's going to be moments, whatever I do, it might trigger something else.
It might trigger a past story for somebody, and suddenly I'm simply a catalyst for change. And it has nothing really to do with me, but suddenly I can be a catalyst for change.
Matthew Riven [00:26:50]:
You know, you're potentially a catalyst for change. You're also a catalyst for a trigger. Yeah. Change only depends if the person wants to change or not.
So y- you had a couple of great points. And, and again, and it's an expression I use often, it's one of the taglines from, uh, the business that I do is whether it's boardroom or bedroom, everybody comes in with a different background and a different history. And saying to somebody, the incident I had, saying to somebody, "Hey, we're scheduling this, this off-cycle one-on-one."
You're like, "Oh my God, what did I do? I did something wrong." That was a trigger for me, having nothing to do with my boss, everything to do with stuff I had growing up. Everybody that you interact with, whether it's the bus driver on your way to work, whether it is your significant other that you've been with for 34 years, whether it is somebody you've worked with for four months or 14 years, they all come from a different background.
They're all gonna have different triggers. They're all gonna have different responses to things. And it's just being open to understand that some things are personal, some, some things are personal, some things are not, some things that you need to bring emotion into. We'll talk about that in a second. So everybody's got these different viewpoints, these different triggers, these different hiccups, these different things that bother them and they don't, and we need to have the empathy and the communication to be able to understand that and allow that to be present and to allow for the ruptures and more importantly, the repairs.
You made the comment about bringing emotions. I, I, you know, there was so much bad research done of, and bad work culture done back in the turn of the century, before that, '80s, '90s, around then, that there shouldn't be any emotion in the office. It is a business. You have no emotion whatsoever. You go in, you act like a computer, you get your job done.
Matthew Riven [00:28:49]:
I don't care if you're happy or mad or pissed or anything else. Thank God I never saw that research. Have none of this It's a terrible thing. We're all human beings. We are going to have emotions about things, and pretending that we don't leads to problems at home, but also at the workplace. To say that we're only allowed to have emotions in your personal life but not at work, there are things at work that are going to be frustrating.
Allowing that frustrating, frustration out, now, without telling your boss to fuck off, without getting fired, are important things.
Yvonne Heimann [00:29:25]:
Luby would kill me. Luby would kill me if I told you to fuck off.
Matthew Riven [00:29:30]:
But having anger to set boundaries, not rage at the system, having anger to set boundaries, to say, "Hey, that upset me," all of that is valid in the workplace and should be received that way.
It may not be. It depends on who you're working with. But it should be there. Now, I get it, you don't want to be, stereotypically speaking here, don't send letters, you don't want to be the woman who's always crying. You don't want to be the guy who's always yelling. You don't want to be any of the stereotypes. At the same token, you still need to be able to have your emotions.
You should be able to get upset at work without being defined as oversensitive or bitchy or guys being aggressive or what a wimp or anything else. Things we bring into our lives impact us, or it's gonna trigger some things. You wanna avoid those triggers. You wanna know who you're working with. You wanna have a place where you can say what's going on without being judged, fired, removed, not promoted, anything else.
Yvonne Heimann [00:30:35]:
Oh, that, that is, that is a big thing- And it, um, we are working on with the team.
Matthew Riven [00:30:45]:
It's, it's a workplace culture that you're trying to, working hard to create. It's some of the fun that I have is it... I love working with individuals and couples, helping them get through these things and see the patterns and the games and the triggers and, and redecide the things that happened to them early on.
It's fascinating as well for me to go into the corporate world and do the, the lectures and the discussions and the trainings and the coaching on culture, to be able to say, you know, even HR departments are like, "We don't want emotions in the workplace." Guess what? You're gonna have emotions in the workplace even if you don't want them.
To have these conversations is, is fascinating, and I love what you're doing with your company to say, "Hey, um, we can-"
Yvonne Heimann [00:31:28]:
Because it, it's, it's also as, as an advantage to me, right? It's a better company. It's a better output. It's like, it, it, it was such a thing for me to, to see my team, especially new team members coming in, um, being like, "I don't wanna tell you if I, if I feel sick. You're gonna fire me." I'm like, "No. It just means we know that you are not going... You're never gonna be always 100%, and I just need to know when you are not feeling well." And I'm like, "Heck, I don't feel right once a fucking month. We need a day off." There is, there is times where my emotions just do whatever they wanna do.
Luby knows my cycle better than I do at this point. It's, it's just- And it's just, it's just human nature. You're gonna have a bad day. Shit is gonna hit the fan. Things are gonna happen. Just let me know so that we can pick up or move things accordingly, or I can take care of the blowback from a client because we missed a deadline.
But I can't, I can't be the buffer, whatever that needs to look like, if I don't know. And it was, it was... It took a lot to get the team comfortable with that because they were looking at me like deer in the headlight. I'm like, "If I tell you that I'm sick, you're just gonna fire me." I'm like, "No."
Matthew Riven [00:32:40]:
Well, that's because it's a culture we've raised, certainly in, in the United States.
Certainly, uh, some companies are better than other, absolutely. Um, life happens. Uh, I've always said you can't, you can't take what life gives you and wear it as a shield, as a badge of honor An extreme example is the reason, you know, some guy looking up or some person looking up and being, you know, "The reason I'm such a mean asshole is because I got beaten when I was a kid."
No, I got news for you. The reason you developed a habit of being a mean asshole is 'cause you got beaten as a kid. You can change that now if you want. You are the one taking the decision to be mean. What you're using- you're old enough. What you're using now is not a... It's a reason, but now it's an excuse.
And you can change that. Yep. So when the employee is like, "Oh my God, I know we've got a meeting at 3:00 with a client. Um, my 14-year-old cat, I'm going to the emergency vet right now," that is life happening. Go. I got your back. And if you're, and if you're a boss that's gonna be like, you know, "This client is much more important than the 14-year-old cat you've had through thick and thin and your cancer crisis, and the fact that your three kids only know life as a cat- And the client can go, then you're a bad boss. Sorry, I'm gonna put it out there.
Yvonne Heimann [00:33:55]:
I will, I will literally fight for my team. Yeah. If, if the client has an issue with that one- Right ... we got a problem with that client.
Matthew Riven [00:34:00]:
But that's the thing is life happens. Now, you shouldn't be using the cat excuse a week and a half later of that's why things are still going on.
So there needs to be the balance on both sides. Yes. But there needs to be balance because, yes, people don't trust it originally, and also, yes, there are bad employees that are gonna take advantage of it. My reason there is manage the employee either to change or manage the employee out. But don't make a hard, fast, draconian rule that impacts 15 people because you had one bad employee.
Yvonne Heimann [00:34:36]:
We've tested a couple of employees that left because... that were left. Because it- It is ... the, the communication, whatever I tried, whichever angle I took, and however we tried to make it happen, it just did not work. I'm like, "I'm done. I'm just done." And then I have others where you can tell simply by age, by location, by upbringing, by former jobs, whatever it is. They're working, they're trying, they're changing, they're taking feedback, they're taking self-responsibility, and we are polishing out the little things that just don't quite work right right now.
Matthew Riven [00:35:15]:
You did a, I appreciate you bringing me in to meet with your team and say this is a resource you can turn to when you want. I've seen other organizations have people on staff to bring in and say you can make change if you want. Yeah, it's a great idea.
Yvonne Heimann [00:35:35]:
And no, I have no idea if anybody took him up on that.
And I won't tell you. I don't want to know. That's their business. I know from a couple of employees that they are going regularly to therapy. I know that. I don't ask more than that. They share that information. But I'm like, heck yeah, anybody that puts the extra work in, I am all for it. And with that, there you go.
You got the latest Yvi lessons. Interesting how things start showing up in the business more and more as we scale, as we grow, as Yvi needs to change a little bit and not do all the things herself.
Matthew Riven [00:36:20]:
There's psychology. There's power dynamics, whether you're talking about interpersonal relationships from to your parents, to your siblings, to your in-laws, to your partner, to your lovers, as there are in business, whether it's managers, subordinates, equals, employees, clients, contractors.
Managing one will help you manage them all. And I appreciate you bringing me back as you do for these talks. Love being here. It makes it easier to tell the stories that I've been going through. Yeah. And it's, it's, these are, I like these podcasts because these are easy podcasts with challenging questions and hopefully they're, everybody's finding them helpful as well.
Thank you for bringing me back as you do.
Yvonne Heimann [00:37:00]:
Thanks for coming on. With that, you know the spiel. It's all in the description. And if you haven't subscribed yet, what the fuck are you doing? What the fuck are you doing? You know I'm joking. Halfway. Hit that subscribe button. I'll see you in the next episode.