Yvonne Heimann [00:00:01]:
Have you ever caught yourself wondering if you could actually make a living doing something you love and feel good about it? Today we are talking about the struggles so many of us face when it comes to feeling worthy of success and stepping out of the old believe that earning a living should be hard work, not joyful work. There's the pressure of childhood messages about money and working hard for approval.
The challenge of finding your true voice in a world full of salesy noise, and the discomfort many feel when it's time to sell or set prices that reflect real value. Joining us to shine a light on these topics is Rachel Allen, an expert in data driven yet deeply human centered marketing. In this episode, you'll hear Rachel's journey from self-doubt to success.
Her insight into authentic communication and practical ways to bring your full self to your business. Get ready for honest stories and real tips you can use right away.
Yvonne Heimann [00:01:12]:
So let me introduce you to Rachel Allen, who is a fast thinking, deeply nerdy marketer with broad ranging experience in for profit and nonprofit sectors. She has written for some of the biggest and smallest names in business and excels at marketing that's equal parts data driven and human centered. I love that combination by the way.
Having won a marketing agency for 17 years with clients in 21 plus countries, Rachel's written for some of the top names in entrepreneurship as well as influencers, brick and mortar businesses and non profits around the world. Her work has contributed directly to high roi, launches, leaps and audience engagement, industry awards, relationships with top venture capital firms and national level honors. Girl. Talk about having a resume and in something that is not something I care much about, to be honest. It's like you love the writing. I, I don't. Yeah, I always joke. It's like I still have the six finger search system.
Everybody that's just listening to the podcast, you're gonna have to jump over to YouTube to see what I was talking about. But yeah, it's like, yeah, I, I copy and paste, I voice dictate. It's. I, I can't even halfway type as fast as I think. So yeah, my, my hat is up to you because it's like, especially with writing, it's, it's such a, it's just different to me. I don't know, it's like I always struggle with writing and getting the right words. Were you always into writing or did you just kind of discover that at some point?
Rachel Allen [00:03:07]:
Honestly, like moving. The way I move through the world is with words. It's just such a natural thing to me. It feels like breathing. And I will say I can't do math like at all. I mean like count, I count on my fingers. I cannot do even basic arithmetic. But words have just always worked for me and I am absolutely shocked that someone pays me to do something that is so easy and fun for me.
Yvonne Heimann [00:03:35]:
So that's interesting though to hear from you and completely not in my plans for your questions today. But it's just kind of like the perfect layup where you're like, yeah, that amazement of somebody pays you for something like that. And I, I sometimes wonder if that's a woman thing for us or if that's just a childhood limiting belief of money doesn't grow on trees. It's not supposed to be easy to make money or something.
What's your experience with this, with this long tail of the idea, oh my God, somebody pays me for Something that I love doing. How much, how, how deep does that go for you? Because is it, do you think it might have been what we've been taught as kids for you, or where do you think that's coming from for you?
Rachel Allen [00:04:29]:
I mean, I absolutely think it's a childhood thing for me. I was raised by Calvinists, which is a particularly work oriented flavor of Christianity. That's no longer my cup of tea. But the whole thing with Calvinism is the harder you work, the more God loves you. And as an over performer, I know, right? It's like, oh, but like, perfect, perfect catnip for an over performer who's like, oh, I can totally. I can work so hard. I'm going to be so lovable. And so I've really had to.
I think the word people use is divest from that over the years to be like, you know what, what if I do something that's fun and people still love me? How about that?
Yvonne Heimann [00:05:11]:
It's like, yeah. I'm like, there is so much behind that where it's like, oh, yeah, we're not going into a full and limiting belief session right now, but holy canoli. It's this, right? Because you implied you are not being loved if you are not. It's, it's the base of the whole hustle culture, right? You are only worth something if you are working your ass off. You're not going to be loved if you're not working your ass, if you're not going to make money if you're not working your ass. I'm like, holy cannoli. Yeah, let's not go down that rabbit hole. Or we have three episodes for the. Next five hours exactly. We just, we just open up Pandora's box.
Yvonne Heimann [00:06:00]:
Coming back around to a little bit of not so much deep. Still deep conversation, though. You work, you work in quite some, some deep situations. I'm like, there's a lot going on with what you do where it's not just writing, it's also stress management, issue management. I'm like, you are publicly out there with written content. Where did one of your clients ever end up in one of those oh, somebody is getting fired moments and you had to save them.
Rachel Allen [00:06:38]:
Oh, gosh. So while I don't do crisis communications, that's a specific specialty and I don't want to be on my phone enough for that. I have had moments. Yeah, no, I hate my phone. I'm like, I want it to be as far away from me as possible. I've had moments, though, where clients so clients often bring me in when they're in the middle of a transition and something has gone very badly wrong. I often say that I work with founders who have impossible dreams and unsolvable problems, and then they need someone to come in who can both see the dream and be like, oh yeah, no, no, no, we can totally make that happen. And oh, wow, look at that.
You've gotten yourself in quite the mess. Here's a plan for us moving forward. And so I do. And you're exactly right. You know, while my, my official job is marketing strategist, so much of it is it's just problem solving and it's listening to people who are really upset because they are having a public mistake happen. And they need someone who can be like, you know what, I hear you. This absolutely sucks and we're gonna fix it.
Yvonne Heimann [00:07:38]:
And I think that's, that's a lot with business in general. It's like we do a lot, we say a lot. And especially in a situation where you are publicly or under pen name or at. The word that comes to mind is white label. Yeah, yeah, A. A voice for somebody else there. I imagine there is a lot of close and strong connection to the people you work with. Because I'm like, the goal is, especially when you are specifically working with and writing for somebody, it doesn't want to sound like freaking AI.
Rachel Allen [00:08:26]:
Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, go ahead. Yeah. No, it just, it's. I think that's such an important, like, articulation of that. And you know, my clients do tend to work with me on and off for about a period of five years. That's the average, like length of a client engagement.
And know, not every day. But I love being able to build the relationships with them because I can come in and, you know, I can, I can write some copy that's technically good, but I want it to sound like it has come out of your cells, you know, like, I want this to be so unmistakably you that no one could think a robot did it. And that, as you said, takes time and connection.
Yvonne Heimann [00:09:02]:
Yeah. And your agency is known for human first marketing.
Which I love. I'm like, I'm human first system. You are human first. I'm like, I love it. What does that mean for you in practice? And how do you balance that data driven decision with that authentic human connection? So how does that show up?
Rachel Allen [00:09:30]:
Yeah, so I think part of it shows up in just the way that I approach the work, which is whenever anybody's working with me, I don't really see it as a transaction, even though there is an element of that. Right. We sign a contract, someone pays me, I do some work, but it's really a relationship. And that's why, I mean, people get surprised. On podcast, I'll normally just hand out my email and say, hey, anyone on the Internet, feel free to email me. And they're like, but you just want to talk to anyone. And I'm like, if someone has taken the time out of their day to send me an email and they are genuinely trying to make a connection with me, of course I do. I don't care if we work together or not.
That's a person. And they are seeing me as a person. And of course we're going to have a conversation. So that shows up that way in the work. When I'm actually doing strategy, I think a lot about the people on the other end. And it's really easy in marketing to start depersonalizing them and seeing them as an audience or numbers or engagement or whatever. And I'm like, no, that's a person. They woke up this morning and they had to take their dog out for a walk or, you know, maybe they're worried about how their kids doing at school or whatever.
Rachel Allen [00:10:33]:
And I just always try to really keep that so present. And it makes a difference in the marketing because now instead of coming at it from really a more adversarial standpoint of you need to give me your attention, I'm going to snatch your money. Like, give it to me. I'm like, hey, we're having a conversation. Also, I do this thing if you want it. Great. Here's the button.
Yvonne Heimann [00:10:53]:
I like that. And it's. It aligns so much with my own personality where it's like, it's more of a pull rather than a push. And yeah, with that, I think we saw it somewhere on your. On your website. You stated good copy should draw people in what we were just talking about, showcase value and make actions like clicking the Contact Us button a no brainer. What are some of the key elements that entrepreneurs, me, anybody out there should start looking at and including to achieve that in their copy, to really get towards that. Talking to humans again and not just numbers.
Rachel Allen [00:11:38]:
Yeah. So I think the first thing is actually things that maybe you should take away instead of adding. And I think that is if there's something that you're doing only because somebody else told you to or because that way sales copy is, then you should get rid of it. I see this so often. People, like, maybe they have a beautiful newsletter and like amazing blogs or social media. And then you get to the sales page and it, it sounds like they've had a personality transplant because they're like, but I have to be salesy now I'm selling. And I'm like, nope, nope, nope, nope. Same conversation, same you.
So if there's anything where you're like, but this marketing person in a webinar said to do it, I'm like, who cares? You know, that's somebody on the Internet. Do like make it sound like you make it natural to yourself.
Yvonne Heimann [00:12:23]:
And I think there is, there is pieces to that where I'm a systems person. Right. I love me some frameworks. You still can follow certain frameworks and how you position things on the sales page or wherever and still be yourself and still have your own voice.
Rachel Allen [00:12:44]:
Yes. One of the like best examples I've ever seen of this is a friend of mine. She did her own website. It's called Zuzu's House of Cats and she's an artist. Incredible. And she has made the craziest website I have ever seen that is somehow also not obnoxious to navigate. And so it is so far out there. But underneath it all, there's still that structure, that framework.
Right. It has a homepage, it has an about page, it has a sales page. But when you look at it, it's just skinned so differently. You would never think that you could be that creative within those constraints.
Yvonne Heimann [00:13:18]:
Now, talking about starting a business, you talk about starting a business as, quote "the most intense personal development journey. Nobody realizes they are going on until they are in it." And when I saw that, I'm like, yeah, I feel seen, I feel heard, and I kind of feel called out. Can you share? I'm pretty sure there's a story behind it and there's probably a personal transformation behind this too. Can you share when that realization hit you and how it has shaped your leadership and how you show up?
Rachel Allen [00:14:02]:
Yeah. So I started my business accidentally and never thought that I would do this. This was gonna be like my gap filling thing between when I graduated and when I got a real job, a grown up job. And I, I was very fortunate and also worked really hard because I can't not do that. But I was very successful almost right away. And I had gotten into this for about 5 years and I was living the dream, you know, the entrepreneur dream. I was living on an island in Greece and I would work in the morning and I would sunbathe all afternoon and strapping young Greek men would bring me freshly pressed orange juice. And I was miserable.
I was absolutely petrified and anxious and like having panic attacks. And I was like, wait, what is happening to me? Like, how did this happen? And what I finally realized was like, I. It was so foreign to my identity to think of myself as a business owner and to be successful at something which I had never in my life thought I would be successful at, never even really wanted to. And then to realize that, you know what, I've actually fallen in love with this. And there's so much more I could do for my life if I'm willing to leave this smaller version of me behind. And it took such a. Such a process of moving away from, you know, what? I thought my life was going to look like this. And it looks like something I could have never imagined.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:31]:
I'm curious because some conversation has happened behind the scenes in my circles. When that change was happening, when that shedding was happening. Was there a season of grief for old Rachel?
Rachel Allen [00:15:48]:
Oh, gosh, absolutely. Absolutely. There was a season of deep grief. I was also sort of unrelated, but I guess, you know, it's all tied together. I was in this process of recalibrating a lot of my intimate relationships. And so there was the grief of losing that and losing almost world of who I had been. And I mean, I grew up in rural Appalachia, you know, very much not the person who lives on the Greek island and, you know, does that. And this shedding sort of culminated when I moved to London and I decided I was going to do like a last ditch attempt at being a real grownup.
So I was like, I'll get a master's degree because that's what people do. And so I got a master's degree.
Yvonne Heimann [00:16:30]:
Not laughing about me. Yeah, what everybody else tells me I should do rather than listening to yourself. I don't know anything about.
Rachel Allen [00:16:37]:
I'm probably the only person who's ever done it. That's, that's what I'm, you know, believing. Yeah. So I did that and I got halfway through the degree and they were like, oh, you should stay for a PhD. And I was like, I just can't. Like, this is, it's just nothing is as fun as the other stuff that I'm doing. But there was an enormous period of grief throughout that as well.
Yvonne Heimann [00:16:57]:
And yeah, I brought it up because it's. I've heard somebody say, and it was the first light bulb moment a couple of years ago where it's like, yeah. There is a stage of grief that many haven't talked about because you are grieving your old you. Right. It is literally something, someone you are leaving behind. And I wanted to bring it up because I want to let everybody listening and watching know, it's okay.
In that. In that process of becoming who you want to be, it's not always going to be sunshine and hot Greek goddesses with. I do like that idea, though. I'm like, yeah, grapes with that and a little. Little bit of.
You don't need to wear a top, though. It's fine.
But it's like finding what's right for us. What do we want to do?
There also is leaving expectations behind. It's not always just the perfect story and the perfect growth. And I'm like, wanted to bring that in for anybody that might be in the middle of this right now. It's okay. And I'm like, I personally been through those grief stages multiple times where it's like, where did this just came from? I have everything I wanted, and suddenly I get smacked over the head with, bitch I'm putting you down. It's okay, ladies. It's okay. Coming back around to finding ourselves, wanting to show us ourselves.
Yvonne Heimann [00:18:31]:
You have a workshop called how to write a sales page, and you're talking for that workshop about helping sell, helping people to sell without discomfort. I'm like, I'm one of those people where I'm like, so, yeah, hi. The way here's your investment. Call me tomorrow. I'm out. It's in certain situations is like, yeah, I know my value and still selling is like, I like poll. Ask me. Ask me what the bill is and where to put your card in.
I'm like, I don't want to have certain conversations. Working on that one. Working on that one with your work that you are doing on selling without discomfort. Selling just easily. What are some of the biggest mindset blocks you have seen with people like me that are like, I don't. I.
Rachel Allen [00:19:39]:
I love this. When I teach that workshop, I. I talk about. I think there's a meme that says something like, can you help me out? I mean, it's totally fine. If not, I mean, if you want to, like, run me over with your car instead, that's totally fine. And I see people on sales pages of like, you can buy my thing.
Don't worry. And I'm like, okay, let's just wait.
Yvonne Heimann [00:20:02]:
I'm like, even you, Even now I'm like, yeah, sure, I'm asking for a sales page copy workshop, but it's like my brain even just went to two conversations, right? That's kind of where my brain went. And I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. Stepping into my power on sales pages. You even see that in sales page copy, where it's the same pull and. And push and hiding on a sales page.
Rachel Allen [00:20:30]:
Oh, yeah, because people will have. So they'll maybe have, like, a headline that they've just angsted over. And then we get all the way to the bottom, and the button is like, that big, like, buy here or not. Or it'll be like, buy here. And then they'll like, bury it in 50 FAQs or another thing I see a lot is they're like, buy here, or if you need a discount, let me know. And also, you can have a payment plan. And also. And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Clean it up. You don't know. You have no idea about people's wallets. So, I mean, that's the first thing I always say. Stay out of other people's wallets. You have no ideas.
Yvonne Heimann [00:21:05]:
You're my new bestie. You're my new best. That is my favorite saying. Get out of your client's wallet.
Rachel Allen [00:21:11]:
Yes, exactly. Because you have no idea. And it's so easy. And of course, I've, you know, of course I have been here where maybe all of my peers are saying things like, gosh, the market's really tight right now. Nobody's buying. Right. It's like. And if you buy into that. Sure, that's absolutely true. But what I found, actually, this was, I don't know, five years or so back. The last time we were having some sort of market dip was in a spot where I didn't have any clients lined up, which is pretty unusual for me. And I thought, okay, well, this kind of sucks. They don't like it.
So I could either decide to cut all my pricing and, like, try and go really cheap. And I was like, that feels really bad. So I was like, okay, but what if I quintupled it? And I was like, there is no way somebody's in pay five times. I landed a client, like, the next week. Yeah. So you have no idea, like, what the market being tight means to other people.
Yvonne Heimann [00:22:03]:
And also just the perception of things. Right? Yeah, because it's. And I didn't. Piece by piece, there was so much in there. Oh, my God. I didn't even think about it. Of like, yeah, hiding the buy now button right in and just. Oh, yeah.
And this pricing plan and this could discount and all of those. So I didn't even think about it in this sense of not showing up and asking for just being strong in your. In your. In your pitch. Yeah. And now I totally lost my train of thought with the second one. There was so much good stuff in there where it's like just showing up and. And having that strength to have these conversations.
It's like, I love it. And perception. That's. The second one was that perception of in a market right now where it's like everybody is under beating themselves and everything is cheaper and all the things. It's entirely possible. And I assume you are more into this than I am. I just, I'm in the research for myself where it's like, oh, if I just pay 25 bucks for it, it's just worth that much. And now suddenly when you go five times, four times, three times, maybe even 10 times.
The perceived value, the perceived level of business knowledge, whatever it is now is suddenly different because you are asking that price.
Rachel Allen [00:23:44]:
Exactly. And it puts you in a sea of like. It positions you among people who maybe really are only worth $25. Maybe their offers really just aren't that great. But now you're in the same room as them. You're sitting in the same group of chairs as they are. And so when people see you, they can't differentiate because they don't know the difference between you and them.
Yvonne Heimann [00:24:05]:
Interestingly enough, I talk about universe episodes when it's like it completely aligns with things that are happening in my own life to where I'm like, yes, universe, I hear you. I got the message when. When we were talking about the perception and the price point and where you put yourself. So interestingly enough, where my brain went is, yes, I do coaching and consulting, but I also sell my ClickUp templates that we've optimized and all the things. And I always pride myself that I just don't throw a template at you. There's videos, there's explaining so you understand it, so you can customize it so you can make it yours. Recently had a conversation where somebody came, like, I thought, I'm just getting the template and there's a whole training.
Yvonne Heimann [00:24:51]:
So there was a sales funnel issue behind it. We're working on that. But it led to the conversation of, you have a whole video training with this. And I'm like, duh, now talking with you about this. Where my brain went is like, yeah, I put myself with the pricing in a situation where I'm in the sea with everybody else and what everybody else does is they just give you the template and done. And I'm like, I want to teach you how to fish. So adjusting pricing, you completely adjust just expectations. So I might just any.
Yeah, anybody needing ClickUp templates you might want to buy now because after this episode I might just raise my prices on it.
And so I love the language too.
Rachel Allen [00:25:40]:
That's what, that's exactly what I was gonna say. I was like if you still want that pricing that like there's nothing wrong with having a lower priced offer but you do have to be exceptionally clear. So something I did earlier this year was I offered my consulting for 80% off and I never do that, I never run discounts. But I offered it because every single person I had talked to for a month said I am having the hardest time in my business I have ever had and I just need some help. And I was like, you know what, let's just do some quick win sessions. I am happy to talk to somebody for an hour and be like look here's what I think you should do. You know, here's the best resources I can give you. Let's co write your sales page in the hour.
Whatever you need. And it was just my way of giving back to this community that has really just held me for 17 years now, you know. But I was exceptionally clear of like look, this is normally $500 an hour. You know, I never discount things because you've seen me for 17 years and never once have I done this. Here is the reasoning why and here is when it ends.
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:34]:
I love that. Clear expectation, clear boundaries.
Clear language. And I'm working on that. As much as I love clear communication, sometimes I'm still not as clear as I would like to be. Oh my God, Rachel. I know I could do this for at least another two or three hours. We might just going to have to have you back on another episode because this was way too much fun for anybody and everybody that is ready to get clear in their communication that get better at this. I know I'm going to be online stalking you guys. Ladies, we only nicely online stock.
We don't do the creepy online stalking. Rachel, where can people find you?
Rachel Allen [00:27:11]:
Oh thank you so much. People can find me at Boltfromthebluecopywriting.com. I'm also on LinkedIn as Rachel Allen. That's R A C H E L A L L E N. There's a Bolt from the blue substack. I'm on Instagram, I think I don't even use it anymore, but I'm there if you just really love that. Or you can just send me an email like it's the ancient times. Hello@BoltfromtheBluecopywriting.com. And I will email you back personally.
Yvonne Heimann [00:27:35]:
Yeah, that's why I have my coffee chat link pretty much anywhere where it's like, if you take the time to pop on my schedule, I will talk to you.
Rachel Allen [00:27:40]:
Right? Of course.
Yvonne Heimann [00:27:44]:
Ladies, you know the links for Rachel, no matter where you listen, watch, read, or whatever, the links are in the description for you to really just click on. Go connect with Rachel, lady. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for coming on, sharing all your knowledge, sharing your amazing personality. I cannot follow. I cannot, cannot follow. I cannot wait to follow you along and all watch all the things that are still to come.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Rachel Allen [00:28:16]:
Oh, thank you so much. This has been so much fun.