Yvonne Heimann [00:00:00]:
And we are back with episode number two with Matthew, where we are diving into. Well, we have dove into, in episode number one, some of the interesting stories I have recently experienced on recording this podcast. So if you have missed that episode, go back and find the latest episode that I've done with Matthew. We always tend to chat and record two episodes at once. Go listen to it. It really will set the stage to what we are talking about now. And in this episode, we are talking about the coaching industry, why so many of us hate the word coach. We're going to be chatting about where we see the coaching industry go, why some of us hate using the word coach, yet still kind of have to, and which coaches are going to survive and which don't.
So come join me in this episode with Matthew where we dive deep into the coaching industry and what's going to make or break it.
Yvonne Heimann [00:01:11]:
So I want to bring these voices and I want to show different perspectives with that. I always had a problem with these. There is only one way to make seven figures. Show me your profit and loss statement, by the way. But that's a whole nother story. So we started diving into the research because I'm somebody. Yes.
I am about 75% there of trusting my intuition. 75%. There's still 25% that is working with old programming and is like, am I feeling this right? Is this, am I, am I getting the right gut feeling? And I do. So by finding evidence now we can go down the road of you find the evidence you are looking for. That's again, another podcast. We went onto limited resources that were available and actually also downloaded a handout of hers where that handout pretty much became the physical manifestation of what my intuition told me because, oh my freaking God, how can I be man bashing when I am a relationship therap therapist? When I'm a relationship coach?
Matthew Riven [00:02:32]:
Yeah, that was.
Yvonne Heimann [00:02:33]:
That's when. That's where Matthew started to lose it, by the way.
Matthew Riven [00:02:38]:
So I, I don't know if Lucas put the camera on me at any point in time during that last little talk that you gave, because my head
Yvonne Heimann [00:02:49]:
For anybody listening in. Lucas is my editor and he is amazing. So, yeah, he probably did. He probably zoomed in right on you in that moment where I was the
Matthew Riven [00:03:00]:
head down, shaking my head. Yeah. So let me start with this. I hate the term life coach. And wait, but. But the nuance is genoble. Yeah, the nuance is for a lot of the work that I do. That transactional analysis, training, the, the power dynamics, the dom training, all of that kind of thing, the years, and a significant amount of money in the training.
It's the best way to describe in some cases, what I do, because people understand what a life coach is. A personal coach, a life coach, a management managerial coach, a relational coach. It is, it is a life coach. And the problem is, 10, 15 years ago, the term life coach was fine because there weren't many people doing it and it made sense. And a lot of these people were very well trained. Nowadays, it is. Anybody with an opinion on the way you should be living your life can call themselves a life coach. And it drives me nuts because it, it weakens the brand.
I, I really distaste. It's a distasteful thing for me to say, I'm a life coach, but it's the best description of it in some ways. This is an individual who is, in many ways, the epitome of that. We went to their website. It was a flat website. What I mean by that is it's a single page. There's no about, single landing page. There's no about, there's no faq.
Matthew Riven [00:04:27]:
There is no who do I do and why do I do this? What are my beliefs? There's no how does it work? It is just, here's a free little PDF that you can download and sign up to pay me money and I will help you with your relationships and help you build a phenomenal relationships. There are people out there for whom she's probably done a very good job finding them, their partners, and it may work for them, but there's nothing about her training, there's nothing about her background, and that is a huge red flag for me. And then we started reading through her PDF and as you said, her definition of relationship was male bashing. Men have to do this. They cannot do these other things. They should never do this. She does not say a word at all about what the clients need to change. And all of the things that I work with as a client is, you can change yourself, you cannot change anybody else.
Matthew Riven [00:05:29]:
We have talked previously on this episode about the "make me feel" fallacy that you can make me feel something, I can make you change. So her entire basis is on getting women to get their men to change, which is the epitome of the it's gotten better, but 10, 15, 20 years ago, it's the epitome of the Disney Princess. Find a man who's broken, change them, and you will live happily ever after. But we have generations of girls who grew up that way. And I was so aggravated reading these things of just going, this is somebody who is bringing, and pardon my language, this is somebody who's bringing their own shit into the room. And by that I mean one of the beautiful things about transactional analysis. A lot of disciplines nowadays, but 20, 30 years ago, the only way to get into TA was to go through it as a. As a.
Matthew Riven [00:06:26]:
To. To get your certification and transactional analysis, you had to work with somebody else and actually do the process and clean yourself up so you're not taking your own crap into the room. This is a coach who is so bringing her own shit into the room that I could absolutely see. She's probably great for me because when everything is said and done, a lot of her clients are going to go see other coaches to unwind the stuff that she's done. It was that bad. And I was getting wound up, partly from Yvi's energy, I will admit, but partly from, oh, my God, is this what this person is doing? And we both started spiraling each other up a little bit going, I am so glad you're not promoting this. I'm so glad you're not letting this out there, because this is the epitome of what is so wrong with coaching nowadays. And that might be the thing that I will say to your listening listeners in your community.
Matthew Riven [00:07:31]:
Find a coach that you can relate to, but see what they've done. Where's their training been? Are there letters after the name? There don't have to be, but are there letters after the name? What is their training? How many years have they spent doing this? Do you have a good rapport? Look at the things they're saying about whether you need to change or their need to change. Look at the sales technique. Hey, Yvi, I'm going to tell you everything you're doing wrong in your life and then tell you I'm the only one who can fix it. You know what that is? That's a cult. Is literally the definition of a cult leader. Other things added in there. We're going to separate you from your friends and family and everything else.
But that's a hell of a sales call. And I've been ranting here for a couple of minutes, but it was so bad. That is everything wrong with a coach. So you want to find a coach out there, great, go do it. Make sure they know what the hell they're doing and make sure they've cleaned up their own stuff and make sure that they're listening to you and asking questions and not judging your life and not blowing through your consent by saying I'm going to judge you and tell you what you're doing wrong when you never asked for my help.
Yvonne Heimann [00:08:43]:
And I think that's. That's a big lesson. I. I'm a helper.
I'm a recover. I'm a. I'm a recovering helper. Right. I will take proactive ways of what I think can help other people. And in the past, I've been in a situation where I'm like. Where I acted wrong, where I'm like, I know better, I know a faster way. Let me take care of it.
And still to this day, I have those tendencies. Still working on that. And it's the, it's the. What Matthew is calling blowing past consent. I cannot make somebody do something or feel something. And it's the make me feel. We are also talking about. It's this, this generation, this, this relationship of often enough, just by human nature, the more I push you, the higher the chances are you actually going to go the other way.
Because you're like, I want to show
Matthew Riven [00:09:52]:
There's a lot that goes on there with the blowing through the consent or being a helper. So we've talked about before, but let's hit on that just real quick. A Make me feel. Everybody's got that person on work. That's. Oh, my God, they make me so angry. Oh, every time I talk to that person, they just. They make me want to cry, they make me want to yell, or as you said, they make me want to pop them in the face.
That's not possible. You are making a choice based on what they're doing. Now. You may have some history, you may have some triggers there that they may have found a way to just push your button such that all I want to do is cry every time I talk to Bob. All I want. Oh, my God, Robin makes me so angry every time. No, you look at it and say, I'm choosing to get angry every time Robin does that. Which also means you can choose to do something else.
And if you don't believe that make me feels don't really exist, go back to that person who got away and say, I did everything I could to make them love me. Well, you know, you can't do it. Few can'ts in the world. It's not a word that I use often. I usually correct people on it, but you can't make somebody feel something, and nobody can make you feel something. It's a choice.
Yvonne Heimann [00:11:04]:
And it's difficult to look at at times. Don't get me wrong, because I'm now able to look at them as data points where it's like, oh my God, he's making me feel that. I'm like, okay, why? What's behind it? What, what is the trigger? I'm like, in our work and not just being coach, but also having built a close relationship, there's moments where we are just people and not coach and, and, and coaching right where we bang heads. And I have been able to get to a point where I'm like, sweet, yeah, right now I'm feeling like not my happiest. And you as well as other people have become the catalyst. That's what I call it. I don't like the word trigger because trigger has the negative connotation. But those situations and those peoples where we bang heads or where suddenly somebody makes me feel something, it becomes the catalyst for me to dig deeper on why.
Where is this coming from? What kind of childhood story happened? What kind of limiting belief is somewhere that I'm feeling this and my heightened emotion to this whole situation? I know where it's coming from. I was never good enough as a child and now you are challenging everything in my life. I know where the emotions came from
Matthew Riven [00:12:33]:
And things that took you a long time to get to and feel comfortable with. An open relationship, a long distance relationship, took you a long time to get comfortable with it. Now somebody is challenging you without, without even the friendship. This is not somebody you've met before. This is somebody pretty much a stranger that you had on your podcast who's all of a sudden challenging some deeply held core beliefs of yours. And coming from, as I'm looking at the PDF in front of me here, coming from just an unhealthy viewpoint as well, that, I mean, you saw me when I first read through this and I'm looking through these 10 healthy signs, 10 unhealthy signs, and I'm pretty much scratch 19 of the 20 items just like, no, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. This is not healthy. This is not healthy because you go through the training and you go through knowledge and just basic psychology.
Matthew Riven [00:13:29]:
And it's like I said, it's one of the reasons I hate coaches, but I am one because it's what people understand. So I'm glad that you had that catalyst to go through it. And it just brought up some of the things that, you know, it helped me to look at what I see from coaches out there that I see. I your guest, probably not so much, but because of what I do, I have lots of coaches on my Instagram feed, they're all like, you know, I make $1.7 million a month and I can teach you how to do it too. And I'm like, you're making 1.7 million. You're probably not going to be on Instagram telling me how to do it. And the only thing that you're telling me how to do is I make all my money by telling coaches how to coach other coaches. By getting on Instagram and selling a coaches tree train coaches program.
It's a Ponzi scheme. And that's one thing I promise myself I will never do. I will never be one of those coaches. I Hope to make $1.7 a month, but I will never be one of those coaches because it just violates the everything I believe in terms of just making people, helping people get better and not thrusting my opinions down somebody's throat.
Yvonne Heimann [00:14:52]:
And that's one same over here, right? It's I, especially with the new company we're developing right now, I teach people systems, right? I teach them how to run a business. Now yes, for me it's ClickUp and High Level and certain systems and certain views and ClickUp. Right. However, the plan is already to grow this way bigger. And when we started, when this idea started to develop actually years ago of what I want to grow this into, I always said I don't want to get fully out of doing the work. Do I always want to have 10 one on one clients? No. My time is not going to allow for it. But if I lose connection to what is happening in the world and I get into this bubble of this is what we teach, this is the only way.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:49]:
There is no growth, there is no polishing, there is no adaption happening. Which interestingly unplanned popping in my head. Talk about external processor. We've seen it happening. So I'm pretty at least following and paying attention to online coaches a lot. Right. It's, it's my scene, especially when it comes to group coaching and, and digital course creation and those kind of things. And the coaching industry is definitely shifting because people are tired of coaches who coach coaches how to coach.
People are expecting something. Coaching had become over the last years easy money, right? Seven figures in seven days. Marketing bs. Everybody, everybody that has integrity knows we fall on bad days when business isn't as is and might download something. But usually we come back to our integrity and I'm like, yeah, I get it. Coaches who coach coaches how to coach. Overall, I am seeing the market changing because buyer behavior is changing. We don't believe this stuff anymore, as easy as it used to be and now you suddenly actually have to deliver.
Yvonne Heimann [00:17:08]:
And when I'm looking at the coaching industry and the circles that I've been following for the last 10, 15 years, it is interesting to follow the patterns. Now, I'm just guessing, I'm just guessing, I don't have behind the scenes information, but when you see that certain of these, what I consider, consider former VIP coaches are closing that program and not doing that download anymore, not doing that anymore. I'm like, yeah, you also haven't done the work in the last 10 years you've been selling this program. Nothing has been updated, nothing has been brought into 2026. You don't know what's happening. You are, they have become the corporation that is using an employee handbook that thick that never anybody ever uses and you have to get through a board meeting with 20 people just to be able to change a freaking phone number or something.
Matthew Riven [00:18:14]:
And it's been 15 years since it's been updated.
Yvonne Heimann [00:18:18]:
Exactly. So it is on the good side, it's not going to happen overnight, but on the good side, I see the quote, coaching industry changing because people expect you to deliver. You can't just do hot air anymore.
Matthew Riven [00:18:36]:
Well, that's, I would, I would hope and that's maybe one of the good things from this podcast is, yes, the coaching industry. And I said it before, I hate the name and that's fine, but that is because of all of this crap and people are like, it's easy and I don't have to have any background and just pay me money. And here's a course to take that doesn't deliver anything or make any changes in your life. And the goal is hopefully for your listeners is talk to the coaches that are making a difference. Can I tell that from looking at Instagram or TikTok and what these coaches are coming across my feed? No, but you dive into the website. Is it a single flat landing page? Is there lots of information? Is there? What is their history? What have they done? Have you had a discovery call with them to say what is your background? Do we fit? Are we a match? What can I expect for making a change as opposed to paying hundreds or thousands or in some cases tens of thousands of dollars for a program that is asynchronous, you don't talk to anybody, you're not learning anything. They're not helping you to make changes to any of the things that you wanting to change. So hopefully people can, are better consumers now.
And I'm trying to. I'm trying to. They're more educated consumers in looking for the right coach that's going to make a difference, that is going to provide them with value without judgment, and they're going to provide you with listening about your desires and your life and your beliefs without shaming you or looking to change some deeply held core belief that may or may not be harmful for anyone and may or may not be harmful for you. But you need to look at that and find the right groups.
Yvonne Heimann [00:20:41]:
That's why I love how you start every session. You want to share. You want to share the question you ask at the start of every session
Matthew Riven [00:20:53]:
When you first I. And it actually drives some clients nuts, but they love it. It's a little hate.
Yvonne Heimann [00:20:58]:
Oh, I know how they feel because you have two questions. One of them still drives me insane.
Matthew Riven [00:21:04]:
So the first time I meet with a new client I've never met before, I will ask them one question. What do you want to change about yourself? And then every single time we meet, question will be asked, what do you want to change about yourself? Imagine it kind of like the season arc of a television show. You've got the one major ongoing what do you want to change about yourself? You. And every little episode you've got, what do you want to change today? What happened this week? What do you want to change today? The other question, by the way, that Yvi hates is what just happened there. Because there are times. There are times. Okay, then the other one I was thinking of is there are many times where I will be able to watch what a client is doing and a body motion, the way they breathe something, and I will be able to look up and say, something shifted there. Something changed there.
What did you swallow back? And usually Yvi just looks up and goes, damn it, you. You. You sense that before I thought it.
Yvonne Heimann [00:22:10]:
Yeah.
Matthew Riven [00:22:10]:
By the way, side note, yes, Yvi hates that. But the side note is for those using the GPT engines
Yvonne Heimann [00:22:16]:
It's a love hate relationship. I know it's helpful for me, but God damn it, can you just give it a minute till I figure it out myself?
Matthew Riven [00:22:28]:
The one side note on that is for those using GPT and some. Some large language model for therapy, esque questions for asking for help or guidance. Some of them are actually not terrible. They're not great, but they're not terrible. But they can't judge body language. They can't listen to the tone of your voice, how quickly you are speaking. They cannot watch what you are doing, how you are shifting some micro movement where you quite literally swallow something back. Or for those looking at the camera, those people who say no while they're nodding their head or yes while they're shaking their head, they can't do that.
You need somebody you're talking to. What's the third question that you hate of a love hate relationship?
Yvonne Heimann [00:23:16]:
What do you need? I don't hate it that much anymore. But oh my God, the first time you said, what do you need? I'm like, what? What do you mean what do you need? I don't fucking know what I need. And it took, it took a while for me to work with that question. It was an interesting experience the first time it came up.
Matthew Riven [00:23:38]:
That is a question that lands because a good coach isn't looking to help without request. We're not looking to violate boundaries or violate consent. But the way it lands for a lot of people when you ask, what do you need? Is for many people it's like, wait, you see me and I'm being seen right now and you want to know what I need? And for a lot of people, that will just throw them because all of a sudden they're being seen. And again, when you have a good coach. Yeah, but when you have a good coach, that's what it should feel like. They should be seeing you from your eyes and not judging you like certain coaches do from their eyes.
Yvonne Heimann [00:24:30]:
I see a good coach as a facilitator. I'm here to because my work brings coaching too. And just like you, I don't like to use the word coach, which is why I call myself a CEO and business efficiency consultant. Because I have the same struggles. Right. A good coach for me is a facilitator. I'm going to ask the questions to help you figure out your answer. I'm not here, yes.
In my processes and systems. Once I figured out what your answer is of how you want to make money and how you want to rate well, how you want to run your business and what your values are and the impact you want to have. Once I have that information, I'm going to be like, hey, I think this could be the process that works great for you. Let's test it. But I'm never going to come back and be like, here's this one process, here's this one thing you need to do. This whole 4am, 5am club. I kill people if I have to get up at 4am I tried it. I really, really consciously tried it and put energy into it.
It's not my schedule, so it's this. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I am here to help you find your answers. And I have such a broad knowledge and so many resources that once we find your answer, I can give you the resources you need to do what you want to do.
Matthew Riven [00:26:00]:
It's a both and so again, coming back to this particular coach who is providing answers, whether or not they're the answers to your question, it's the answers they are providing. But it is also helping with. Let me provide you with some new information. Maybe a different way to look at this, maybe a different way that you haven't thought of. And you can take that or leave it. I provide you with words and ideas, and what you do with them is your choice. But it is the.
There's a different way to look at this which you may have not seen because this is the way you are always taught and the only way to view the world. So here's an idea. Try this or look at this or what happens if. Or is that the way you want to stay living? Is that the way you want to stay? How's that working for you? Those kind of reflections are also questions that, that'd be a fourth question you don't like, is, how's that working for you?
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:56]:
And sometimes it just is where I don't have the bandwidth to work through something right now, and it just is. I know it's not working for me and I don't have the bandwidth to work on it right now. Cool. Okay, we'll put it on, set it
Matthew Riven [00:27:11]:
aside, set it on the side. And sometimes that's what you bring to a coach or you, you, you, you wait for your next session with your, with your coach or therapist or whoever it is that you're relying on or talking to. Or you just call them up after a really, really bad podcast and go, oh my God, do I need to vent? You need to hear this.
Yvonne Heimann [00:27:30]:
I know what you're talking about.
Matthew Riven [00:27:33]:
But it was a great switch of you needed to vent. And then, oh my God, did I need to vent?
Yvonne Heimann [00:27:37]:
And with that, I thought it was a great way for my audience for you guys to, to get a little bit of a better idea. I'm like, my solo episodes are often behind the scenes things that are happening in the moment and especially with soon some new announcements coming about the new company and Ask Yvi is not going anywhere. The podcast isn't going anywhere. It's all good. We're just adding to the collection. I wanted to bring this on. I wanted to bring this on for you to see no, we are not just bringing anybody on. For me to also probably do kind of like a second walk through this happening of this just happened.
100. Just took 150 episodes to get here, but this just happened. And just for you to also experience that. Yeah, I'm deeply passionate. Yes, I go off the hook. Yes, I do not get physical with people. However, there is moments where I want to punch them in the face. I do not act on that.
I am grown up now. I don't do that. I did that in school with the boys. And would it just. Yeah, but I was the one that actually got in trouble and had to stay longer. I got in trouble for those ripped jeans just because I took that bully off. Yeah.
Matthew Riven [00:29:10]:
But it was. It was a good podcast.
Yvonne Heimann [00:29:12]:
Little. Little Yvi fighting bullies.
Matthew Riven [00:29:15]:
It was. It was a good podcast to be able to say, as you said, not everybody makes it through the cut anymore. Most do. But I'm not going to give bad advice to my community. And when something new happens that triggers me or is a catalyst for change, it's good to have places to go and learn how to work through them. And it's very important to have the good workmate or assistant who can send the letter for you.
Yvonne Heimann [00:29:47]:
Oh, my God. It takes a lot to make her mad. And oh, my God, once. I only have seen her mad once. Only once. That was this email. Only once. Oh, yeah.
I don't get me wrong, I'm. I'm not always easy. Right? It's like I put a lot of pressure on Luby. There's a lot of things happening all at once. That right there, it looked like Mama Bear came out. It was, on one hand it was like, holy. And on the other hand I'm like, oh, it was cute. It was cute.
With that. Thanks, everybody for joining. You know what to do. If you're not following the podcast yet, what are you doing? Wherever it is, hit the button. Follow us on YouTube so you actually can see the weird faces my guests and I make on the podcast. And Matthew, thanks for coming on. Thanks for being one of the few guys that get to join the female leader podcast.
Matthew Riven [00:30:48]:
It is. I do not take. I don't take it lightly. From the first time I was on your podcast to this time and every time in the middle and hopefully if you want me back in the future, I don't take it lightly that you have invited me into this community and to provide a safe container and the viewpoint and thank you. It is always an honor to be here.
Yvonne Heimann [00:31:16]:
And with that, thanks everybody and I'll see you in the next episode.