Yvonne Heimann [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to another, a little bit different episode of She Is a Leader. And originally, you might have met Matthew already beforehand. If you're watching the video and you've seen him before, you know that handsome face. And you also know that he is one of my mentors, one of my coaches, somebody that I'm working closely with. And he is here because I was supposed to have an episode about a month ago to go live. And within not even 24 hours of recording that episode, I completely canceled everything.
Yvonne Heimann [00:00:45]:
Matthew, you saw me pretty much within the hour. You heard the story, you saw my emotions, you saw all of that pretty much about an hour after I had recorded that episode.
So I'm going to let you just start there. Let's just start in the beginning of the shit show.
Matthew Riven [00:01:04]:
So I received call from you. I don't think it was an hour. I think it was minutes after that episode had ended. And you were, you reached out, you were pretty riled up after. After that episode. So let's start with.
Yvonne Heimann [00:01:22]:
Oh, it was deep and I was deep in my emotions, which is one of the reasons why I called you because I know I was in the moment and I was ready to do it.
Matthew Riven [00:01:32]:
So what happened? Let's start with that. So for. For your listeners, let's start with what happened during your recording with this guest.
Yvonne Heimann [00:01:43]:
We. During the recording already, there were a couple of moments where I'm like, okay, not, not necessarily how I see the world, not necessarily how I do things, but that's one of the reasons why I have the podcast, right? To get different points of view, to get different approaches, to tell different stories. And I'm completely fine with this. Again, that's the purpose of the podcast, to bring different voices on. I don't have to agree with everything. And I hit the stop record button, which maybe I shouldn't do that. Maybe I should record all previous green room and after talk because suddenly I was caught up at that moment. It didn't feel like an interrogation yet, but it had the feeling of a bad sales call.
On the podcast itself, there were piece before the. In the green room before the recording as well as on the podcast, there were a couple of things mentioned of I'm traveling, I am in an open relationship that I'm spending time with, but I'm going to move to a different location and just having an alternative lifestyle in my private life. It just happened to come up in the conversation. And if anybody of you is following me on social media, it's. I don't make a big deal out of it. You see my shibari lessons on my Ask Yvi profile and the stories. I. I don't hide those.
Yvonne Heimann [00:03:08]:
Right. So I don't have a problem. It's. It's my life. We all have our ways of living life now. That information was turned back on me afterwards. So I had already caught up on a couple of signs that this guest was uncomfortable with that. Nothing major.
Right. Somebody is just uncomfortable. I get it. Not everybody can carry their heart on their sleeve like I do.
Matthew Riven [00:03:36]:
I want. I want to ask. I want to ask. I want to ask real quick.
Based on the fact that what I heard then, now, this is a couple months ago, was she uncomfortable or was she judgmental in that moment?
Yvonne Heimann [00:03:52]:
Specifically when I mentioned whatever specifically I said, that indicates that I'm in a. In an alternate alternative lifestyle probably right in the moment. The initial reaction, I think, was uncomfortable. It turned really fast to judgment once the record button was off. It was a, how can you do this and leave your partner behind? I'm like, they're not leaving them behind. They have their life. I have my life. We have done this for, I don't even know, two years, maybe even three years.
At this point, in a long distance, nothing is changing. I got to spend a good amount of time with them and my journey takes me somewhere else, where it takes them, and in the future, somewhere on some location they're going to match again. And it just became judgmental because everybody is supposed to have white picket fence, a dog, and one husband. Done that, done that twice. Once divorced, once widowed. I have learned that I don't want to put that pressure of be that perfect person on somebody else
Matthew Riven [00:05:13]:
But is this about you or is it about their judgment towards you?
Yvonne Heimann [00:05:21]:
I. I don't know where to take this. What the question is. Her reaction.
Is her limiting belief. Her reaction is her limiting belief and limiting point of view of believing her way of living is the only fulfilling way. Because that's what it came down to. It came down to her believing. And I can't say her. I usually try to say they, but we all know other than just a couple of guys, it's women. On my podcast, it was her belief what life is supposed to look like. And when it's happy, I'm like, girl, I've been there, done that.
I'm a few years older. I have found what I like. And it was her putting her picture of what happy looks like onto me. I didn't tell her how she needs to live her life. Don't, don't, don't you be telling me and judging me? And at that point, I hadn't even called off the episode yet.
Matthew Riven [00:06:24]:
No, no, that can't.
Yvonne Heimann [00:06:25]:
That was me calling you, working through my emotions because, oh my God, I was blowing a casket after this. However, that wasn't even the end of the story yet. Luby, my assistant.
Matthew Riven [00:06:42]:
Before we get to the end of the story. I know, I can feel that before we get to the end of the story, this person who was judging you because you don't fit their idea of what a relationship is supposed to be, was this a business leader? Was this a coach? What kind of coach? What kind of business leader? Who was this individual that you were interviewing? Because that's important here.
Yvonne Heimann [00:07:12]:
So she is considering herself a relationship expert and she empowers high achieving women as well as coaching is a word she uses in her work description.
Matthew Riven [00:07:28]:
Okay, and then what happened at the end of the. After the recording stopped, that was a lot of what riled those emotions up. I still very much remember the call you gave me after this. After this podcast.
Yvonne Heimann [00:07:45]:
So we had that whole rile up in the green room after the recording. At that point, I was still like, I've been working on myself for the last. I don't even know how many years. I see your limiting belief. I see your point of view. I see your view of the world. It is not mine. I.
And I don't need your coaching. That's how I left that. I might not have been quite as clear because I was also baffled to no extent that I invited you onto my podcast, into my community, and you suddenly sales pitch me. That was first within 150 episodes.
Matthew Riven [00:08:25]:
That was. That was the key I wanted you to get to is is at the end of the episode after the recording is done and the judgment had come and gone. You are very good at listening to various viewpoints and bringing different viewpoints into your podcast and into your community. But this individual pitched you for her big time. Yeah, she gave you a very hard sell at the end of your podcast.
Yvonne Heimann [00:08:55]:
And in a way that was passive aggressive and what's the word I'm looking for? Oh, just over the edge. It was a hard sell. She was crawling up my ass with weird compliments while hot selling me. So it's like it didn't even hit. It didn't hit at all. So I was like, you know what? My audience is educated enough to see this and see for what it is. I had some concerns at this point about the episode, was gonna let it settle and feel it out. What I'm gonna do with it.
And walked away from that at this moment. And that's when I called you and unloaded the emotions and worked through it, because I knew I had. I just had to move it. Right? I know me. I can. I can get stuck in anger. I can get just tunnel vision. Okay, let's process through it so I can make an educated decision that is not born and coming out of emotions, of wanting to punch her in the face because this sales pitch was bad.
Matthew Riven [00:10:08]:
You are still. The language you're using right now. The body language you have right now. You are still wound up about this. You're almost reliving as opposed to just retelling. And I think one of the takeaways is you did a great job of recognizing the fact that I'm wound up right now. I need to let this energy out. I need to let this energy out in a safe way as opposed to stewing in it, sitting in it.
All of these sorts of things. I'm not comfortable with this episode. I can call this person, call that person. I can do all these things. You called me and said, I need to let this out. So I let you vent, and we got the energy out in a safe way before you did something that was a bad decision, something that was going to come back at you and let it sit.
Yvonne Heimann [00:10:59]:
When I'm deep in emotions, no matter if it's a good or a bad one, no matter if it's love and excitement or if it's anger and sadness, when I'm in these extremes of the emotion, I get bias remorse. I often make decision that are not the smartest. I don't. Other than my iPad last night. I don't buy on emotions. I don't hire on emotions. I always give myself a minimum of 24 hours before I make that decision. And I only bought the iPad because I've been looking at one for the last six months.
I allowed myself that emotional purchase, and I'm not gonna have bias remorse. So.
Matthew Riven [00:11:41]:
And as your listeners know, one of the nuances with the iPad is it's yellow.
Yvonne Heimann [00:11:47]:
Yes. Perfect. Branding it is on. Brand it. Yes.
Matthew Riven [00:11:52]:
So. So you did a great job. It's like, okay, I've learned my lessons in the past. I have so many of these emotions, I need to let them go. Great. You let them go, and you worked with me. You talked to your assistant. What was the next steps you made?
Yvonne Heimann [00:12:06]:
Oh, I didn't make any steps. I didn't make any steps. I suddenly got a message from Luby telling me that she just got an email to please forward to me. Honestly, I don't even know if we still have it saved somewhere or not. But the point of this email was even more judgmental, meaning I didn't look comfortable with my decisions and how I could never be fulfilled being in an open relationship and just so much reflection of her belief system onto me and passive, literally passive aggressively with the language. It's just, you know when, when somebody says just joking and you know exactly, they knew what they were doing, but they were just joking. That was that email. I'm just out for your best guess what the best is?
What matches my belief system, what matches my values, what matches my work. She never even asks asked what work I have done, how I got here. There was never questions on why I believe this is the right solution for me.
Matthew Riven [00:13:49]:
What was the decision you made from that?
Yvonne Heimann [00:13:53]:
The moment I saw that email, I told Luby, I'm done. I am completely done. This episode is never going to be aired. Her name is never going to be mentioned anywhere. I, I don't want this energy number one in my inbox, in my company or in my community. If you come in here and you want to judge other people based on what you believe is right, you have no home here.
Matthew Riven [00:14:24]:
So you know my feelings about coaching and we'll get to that in a little bit. And this is just, this is my turn to get riled up from this. This was a great interaction of the two of us helping each other in the long run. So I'm going to cancel the episode. And you and I actually talked about it at that point in time as well. Because in 150 plus episodes, you've never done that. You've never had a guest that you needed to yank. You've had people that have applied to be on your show that just weren't the right fit and you decided not to record, but you've recorded with this individual.
You took them in, you gave them a platform and then realize there's a lot wrong here. Easy decision for you to make or hard decision for you to make because you've never done that before.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:09]:
At that moment, it was an easy decision. After seeing that email, I'm like, oh, hell no, no, no, not happening.
Matthew Riven [00:15:19]:
You had a ton of energy.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:21]:
I'm gonna give her a platform for her bullshit, right?
Matthew Riven [00:15:24]:
You had a ton of energy around this. A massive amount of energy around this. I know you. There are times in the past you'll write an email, you'll have ChatGPT help you write an email, but in this Case, what'd you do?
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:38]:
I handed it off to Luby.
Matthew Riven [00:15:40]:
Why?
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:44]:
I'm a passionate person. So the nice thing is. Yes. Am I rattled up right now? Yes. Am I back in that moment right now? Yes. Do I want to punch her in the face? No, actually, not anymore. I'm like, I feel sad, bad for her at this point. However, yes, I'm in the moment.
I'm. I'm empathic. I. I feel emotions when I tell stories. It's. This is what happens on stage. This is what happens with my team. I am deeply passionate about everything I do.
This is even what my clients see. This is me, which means I feel emotions deeply. And I knew that I was going to rip into her when I email her. Luby is my even keel. And even she. Oh, that was the first ever email I saw of Luby ripping into somebody.
Matthew Riven [00:16:46]:
You showed me that email and that was very much one of those. Remind me never, ever to piss Luby off.
Yvonne Heimann [00:16:54]:
I have never. Luby and I work with each other now I need to say a lie. Three years, probably. It feels like ages. She is my shadow. I love her to pieces. That woman is the best I could have ever found. And I have never seen her write an email like that.
She was mad too. That woman is my even keel. That woman is like, Luby, can you please handle this? Because I just can't, no matter which. Which level of the emotion I'm at. And she does. She is even keel. She is super supportive of people. She always deals with any kind of struggles fully even keel.
And I've never seen anything like that afterwards. But that email. Oh, yeah, that. That was an interesting email.
Matthew Riven [00:17:47]:
It was professionally written, but it was also angry. It got the point across very clearly of what went on. And if I remember right, the response was, I understand. And the. The podcast guest was very much okay and just kind of let it go.
Yvonne Heimann [00:18:03]:
Oh, there was. There was no debate because Luby literally told her there is no debate. This is done decisions, final.
Matthew Riven [00:18:10]:
Right. So looking back, this is the first time you had to do with a really a personal attack on you from a guest that you have brought into your community. So you bring in leaders all the time on your podcast and lessons learned and everything else. So lessons learned. CEO of your company and you have somebody come in who gives you a personal attack thinking that they're. Well, in my language, they blew through your consent. They never asked and they forced help upon you. They were, frankly, they were rescuing you from a persecutor standpoint, thrusting you into the victim role.
And if you don't know that language. We can talk about that later. What's your lessons? What is the tip? What, what do you. What, what do you want your listeners to take away from this when it comes to how to handle a personal attack from somebody that is a client or a supplier or some part of your business?
Yvonne Heimann [00:19:22]:
I would like to start that answer with a personal reflection. So looking at me, how we handled it, how even though I'm deep in my emotion when it comes to the story, because I care a lot about my integrity, I care a lot about my community, I care a lot about of what I put out there, I have an ego around the name I've built for myself. So looking at this situation only a few years ago, I would not have handled it how I did. There's two ways of how I would have potentially handled it in the past. I would have questioned my own decisions or I would have called her out while in a deep emotional state and probably told her that I do want to punch her in the face and to go fuck herself. I do that. I have done that when cleaning up my life and people that just shouldn't be in my life, yes, it has happened. I do also always have the door open.
If people want to come back, they're welcome to come back and talk to me. And if I see change, I'm the last one to say no. I have done so much work on myself. I know that people can change. So my first realization on this was, oh my God, I am actually secure in myself and I have physical proof on it. The situation, how I managed it of calling you up and be like, hey, I need to work through this right now. I'm deep into in it, handing it off to Luby, calling it on the episode, no matter what that means for the podcast and staying in my integrity. I would have been like, like a leaf in the storm only a few years back and making myself something just to fit their point of view.
Matthew Riven [00:21:33]:
Feels good, doesn't it?
Yvonne Heimann [00:21:35]:
Feels freaking amazing. And it is little side story to this, how this shows up. And interestingly has showed up multiple times over the last couple of months. You know me, I've now down here in Austin, we had just South by. It's been insane in Austin. I had about 25 different event possibilities every single day and great ones. I had no fomo. I had no FOMO for any event.
You want to know why? Because of the same reason. I know exactly who I am today. I know my values and intentions. I know who I want to connect with and what I want to do. And I'm okay taking a day off because I'm tired and peopled out. And I know that what's right for me and the people that are right for me will show up when I want and need them. If I don't meet them on Thursday at that event, guess what? I. I'm for sure going to run into them next Sunday having a coffee somewhere.
Yvonne Heimann [00:22:47]:
I'm not going to miss out on this huge great opportunity. That opportunity is simply going to happen two days later. And that security, that balance, I did not have that. The amount of FOMO I used to have, the amount of questions, the amount of who I am or following what other people told me who I am, that that weight I was carrying and that constantly, you've always seen this personality. I always show up as me. But I might not have always been happy with how I thought who I am and getting to the point of really understanding who I am and being okay with it is what gives me the strength to say, I'm good. I don't have to do all the South by events. I'm not going to miss anything out.
I'm good. Or you know what bitch? Put that somewhere else. It's nice. Take some work to get here. Especially for women.
Matthew Riven [00:24:05]:
It takes a lot of work to get there. For men or women, both genders. Both. Everybody has things to clear up. But it's a great example of whether it's in your personal life or your work life is cleaning yourself up and getting rid of the bad messages you had growing up is absolute key to moving yourself forward in a healthy way. Yes, this person could have absolutely knocked you off kilter and not only had you question yourself, but question your relationship and question your life choices and then stirred a whole bunch of things up based on the opinion of somebody who we'll talk about in a bit, has an interesting viewpoint on life. It's not. It's neither right nor wrong.
Matthew Riven [00:24:50]:
They just have their own viewpoint, which is fine. It was just, it was an interesting thing to watch you go through the anger, the frustration. And one of the reasons we're doing this, this chat today, this podcast today, is the fact that, well, you kind of needed to fill a spot from somebody that you didn't, didn't allow in from a podcast you canceled. And it seemed to make sense to talk about the lessons learned from this ep, from this incident, as frankly, one of your own podcasts and you being the guest where Yvi's the guest on Boss your Business or Yvi's the guest on Ask Yvi. Because this was a great incident that you went through and showed your spine and showed your growth and your management. There's nothing wrong with you being angry. There's nothing wrong with those frustrations.
Matthew Riven [00:25:45]:
There's different levels of anger. They come from different parts of our upbringing. Whether you're mad at the environment or your parents or significant other, boundaries are never a problem to set up. And anger is a perfectly healthy way of saying, whoa, hey, you're going too far. Knock it off. And in this case for you, you just took your anger and yes, you needed to vent. There was rage there because this person attacked you. Oh, that was definitely attacked your choices.
What was that?
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:16]:
There was definitely wage there and it. Because it was also a multi.
Matthew Riven [00:26:20]:
But you were smart enough not to act on that rage.
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:22]:
It's like my values were questions, my integrity was questions, my work were questions. It like she went through the whole collection of that makes me and questioned everything. Now, the interesting thing though was once I finally calmed down and not finally, that sounds like it was a bad thing. Once I got even keel again, I also came back to seeing for what it is. And I hope that one day she's gonna be able to do the work that I have done because she. Everything she does. And yes, I. I went on a petty online research spree to get in even better understanding than the interview process we do for the podcast to see if I'm right in my assumption.
Everything she teaches and everything she does comes out of a limiting view of the world, out of an unhealed stage and fear and anger. That's what I see. Whichever words you want to put to this, it comes out of a state that is not yet fully healed.
Matthew Riven [00:27:48]:
It was a. You and I did some of the research for your listeners. You and I did some of that research together. And. And it was very interesting because as you were calming down from going through that research, it was riling me up as I was.
Yvonne Heimann [00:28:01]:
Yeah, that was interesting because the role
Matthew Riven [00:28:04]:
The role switched and this interview may switch in a minute here to be like, okay, what did you go through, Matthew? It was. It was an interesting take to. To watch you go through it and the lessons learned on. And actually some amount of patting yourself on the back, deservedly so. When you came to the realization that I can stand up and say no and set boundaries and I'm okay with that and it's not wigging me out. And those are a lot of lessons that certainly a lot of women get growing up, that they're raised to be good girls and have no desires of their own and not say no, whether that's in their home life or their work life. And you had the ability of just looking up and going, now, hang on, this isn't right.
That was an attack. And I'm not interested in furthering this individual's viewpoint. And this is about the first time. This is the first time that you have not provided somebody's viewpoint on your podcast. So it's not like you're looking at the world and saying, if you only think like me, you will be on my podcast. You always get differing viewpoints and learn a lot from it. But this is one that was interesting, especially as you're describing it. She's got an interesting sales technique.
Matthew Riven [00:29:21]:
I'm going to show you everything that you are doing wrong in your life, and I'm going to make you feel, make you. It's a different thing, but I'm going to make you feel bad about your life and then offer you a life preserver, which is paying me an inordinate amount of money over 1, 6 or 12 months in my coaching program because I'm the only one that can save you from all these horrible things that I have just pointed out to you. It was a hell of a sales technique. That was one of the many things that just rubbed me the wrong way. But it was, it was an interesting thing to watch you go through it and the lessons you learn to be like, okay, where are my boundaries when it comes to somebody else's viewpoint on my podcast, for my community, what else do you need to say?
Yvonne Heimann [00:30:11]:
And where it, where it became really interesting is when we switched roles. So I don't, I don't download. I research my guests. Don't get me wrong, because again, it's my podcast. I need to know who's coming on and if they can show up on camera, if they can represent, if I can make them talk. Sometimes people are a little bit more shy. I consider myself being a great host that can get people to talk. Because again, I am not somebody that is my way or the highway, especially with a new company we are building.
Yvonne Heimann [00:30:53]:
It's like, you hear me talk all the time, that all of these processes work, all of these things work, all of these ways of living and building habits work. But we need to figure out what's right for you, which is why I have different guests on the podcast. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it works for you. I'm like, I have clients in my ClickUp and they are like, what the fuck are you doing with me and I need to change the view to work with their brain. Business is the same, life is the same. And with that, we come to the end of episode one with Matthew. As you always know, we usually record about an hour and turn it into two episodes.
So make sure sure. If you haven't subscribed yet, subscribe so you get notified when the episode number two comes live and we share more of our take about the coaching industry, where it's going and what we see happening and working and not working in the future of the coaching industry. I'll hope to see you there. Till then, go boss your business and build your business your way. I'll see you in the next episode.