Yvonne Heimann [00:00:05]:
Hello and welcome back to another episode of She is a Leader. And as you can see, bringing back Matthew Riven because a couple of things happened over the last last few months where I wanted to bring Matthew back in because a lot of behind the scenes conversation has been going on when it comes to coaching, communicating and rescuing. If you are only listening to the podcast, you didn't see me do the quotations because what brought this up for me and why I wanted to bring him on is I've had a couple of struggles going on with working with a client with a bigger team. And yes, you might actually see kitties run around and get in trouble because they love the cables of our cameras. So this is real life, real podcast, real kitties. I'm telling you, you should be watching this episode on YouTube and not just listening to it. We always have fun behind the scenes, especially with kitties that love eating cables that have fabric around them. And with that, Matthew can just shush her away.
Come here, Virgil. You can come into the camera. You want to come see. Yeah, welcome. Welcome to just starting the episode. Real life, real video. No Lucas, which by the way is my editor. You don't have to take this out.
It is way too much fun having a real life podcast. Come here. Go. Go hang out with Matthew or go find your sister. That pretty much comes down to right, what all of my business is about, what the podcast is about as the cat finds the next cable
Real life. I'm right now, we are actually right now in Canada taking a business on the go and still being able to take care of clients. Which brings me back around squirrel moment to work. I've done with a client as of recently and as you might know, I'm a business efficiency consultant. I help people implement ClickUp but also with change management. And that's where you've heard and helped me work through some of the things where communication between the team, communication with me, communication with my own team ended up being a little bit of a struggle simply because there were moments of what specifically do you mean? Where it's like the best example is always customer support. This doesn't work.
Matthew Riven [00:02:53]:
So first of all, it is good to see you and it's good to be back on the podcast. One of my favorite podcasts. So thank you for having me back on. And yeah, communication is whether you're talking about relationships, whether you're talking a spousal or loving relationship, whether it's your children or your parents or it's subordinates or managers at work. Communication is just, well, the root of all miscommunication.
Yeah, so we, we've talked in the past. One of the things that was the object of communication is not to be understood. It's to be impossible to misunderstand.
Yvonne Heimann [00:03:33]:
Can you repeat that one more time? Because I always get, I always reference one, I always use different words. However, it's still the same meaning behind it. So could you repeat that one more time?
Matthew Riven [00:03:43]:
The object of communication is not to be understood. It is to be impossible to misunderstand. And that can be a whole lot of different things. Making sure that you're explaining something to someone frankly, to make sure that they understand it and not because, well, I know it in my head. Why don't you know it in your head? I don't know what you have in your head. I don't know what you're thinking. Demonstrative pronouns. This, that they, them are sometimes you just have to do everything you can to avoid them.
And I just used one, avoid the demonstrative pronouns. Because people will not understand. What did she mean by that? What did she mean by they? And sometimes that can be just enough of a confusion point. People aren't going to know what you're talking about.
Yvonne Heimann [00:04:36]:
And to give you, to give you a couple of specific examples, one of the things I often bring up when I talk about perception, which feeds in this clear communication, is think of the color red. The chances are that the gradient and the variation of the type of color that you think about is not going to be the same shade as the one I'm thinking about. So being precise helps with that. And then also we have a disadvantage with the English language we had in a personal conversation. The example of some somebody said, hey, I would love to grab dinner with you. You. Great. Is that a singular or is that a plural?
Matthew Riven [00:05:22]:
This is somebody who knew us, they met us when we were together. And so when they said, you know, it'd be great to have you for dinner, were they talking about you individually or both of us individually or me and you just didn't know?
So those kind of communications are an issue. I need this done as soon as possible. As soon as possible. Meaning, do I have to stay late and have this done by 10 o'? Clock? Because you need it by 7 o' clock in the morning. Do you need it by Friday? Is it okay if I do it Tuesday? As soon as possible. Possible for you, impossible for me are going to be different.
And so all of these communications come into play and we haven't even yet talked about the nuance of power in games because to dive into that immediately, the way we relate to power and getting our needs met goes back to our family of origin. We'll go back to our first zero to 18 months. How we learned in our family of origin to get our needs met is the way we're going to use power for the rest of our lives until such time as we change that actively and mentally go in and change that. And most people don't. So if you had to play games with your family of origin to get your needs met, to get mom's attention, to get dad's attention, if you had to play games, you're going to continually be playing those games the rest of your life, whether you're talking about a lover or you're talking about a subordinate or manager at work. And those games were great when you were a kid because they got your needs met. It's how you had to relate in your family of origin. And, and there's no problem.
There's nothing you did wrong. When you get to adulthood. The games are just the crazy making things that you find annoying in that person and you hate working with that person because, oh my God, the way they just game things, they don't tell you what they want, they miscommunicate. That's the crazy making stuff they had growing up in their family of origin. But it now no longer works when we're adults.
Yvonne Heimann [00:07:27]:
Now talk about clear communication. Can you give me a precise example of playing a game? Because again, there is so much perception. I'm like, okay, where do I take quote, playing a game?
Matthew Riven [00:07:39]:
Yeah, there's. Yes, but is a great game and that'll lead us into the triangle and everything else. So yes, but you asked me for assistance with something. And side note, we're going to jump on a tangent here. Most guys want to help their partner, they want to help their lover, their spouse, whatever. So the spouse comes in and they're venting about something and the man immediately jumps into white knight syndrome and comes in to help. Have you done this? Have you done this? Have you done this? How about this? Can you try this? Can you try that?
Yvonne Heimann [00:08:12]:
So you don't go on and online and ask for any kind of help. It's like the best example is always like, which laptop should I get? Apple versus Microsoft. And rather than asking questions, it's like, oh, you really should get this one.
Matthew Riven [00:08:25]:
I'm like, you don't know what I'm looking for. You don't know what I need. You don't know how I'm using it.
So when somebody approaches you, when your partner approaches you and says, oh, my God, this happened at work today, well, just talk to him. Just go to the manager to go to hr, do all these things. Sometimes your partner just needs to vent. So we've talked about this in previous podcasts. Is probably the first thing to do is look at your partner and say, what are you needing right now? Do you need to just vent and be heard? Great, let me do that. Are you looking for advice? Are you looking for help? Are you looking for advice as a friend, or are you looking for advice as a business coach? All of these things come into play, but the game, yes, but you asked me for assistance with something. Great. Hey, can you help me with whatever it is? And I'll say, well, yeah, have you tried this? And you'll say, yeah, but that didn't work because of this reason.
Okay. Have you tried this other thing? Yeah, but that won't work because this will prevent it from happening. Have you tried this third thing? Yeah, but. And what happens is every piece of offer I give you, you're saying it won't work and you're putting some stopper in front of it. Some of them may be legitimate, but some of them are just you're not really actually looking for help. What happens along the way is you're going to end up being frustrated with me because I'm not helping you. I've given you a dozen things, but you've turned them all down. And now your frustration goes from the problem to me.
Matthew Riven [00:09:51]:
And it was something you likely did with your original family, your family of origin, and that was to get your needs met. Your parents taught you that you couldn't do anything on your own, so you constantly had to tweak them to get them to do it for you. Now, as an adult, you're sitting there at the office saying, yeah, I can't figure out how to connect to this data system, this new database. Have you tried this? Yeah, but that won't work. How about this? Yeah, but. And you're doing everything you can to get somebody else to do the work for you. That is a game. And where it relates to power, there's something called the Cartman triangle.
It's also called the drama triangle. There are three positions in it, and a game is defined as you start in one position and it's either the rescuer, the victim, or the persecutor. The rescuer, I'm coming in to help you. The persecutor. Yeah, that's somebody who's going to be, well, persecuting you is going to be telling you what you're doing right or wrong or anything else or a little more aggressive. Then you have the victim. Oh, woe is me in a yes but game. You're asking me for help.
Matthew Riven [00:10:58]:
I'm the rescuer and you're coming at me from the victim perspective. I rescue. Here's an idea. I rescue again. Here's an idea. And you keep playing the victim role until such time as you get frustrated with me and there's the switch. The switch becomes. I become the victim to your persecutor.
You get to feel powerful and mighty. I get to feel angry and frustrated. And there's a payoff for you because that's how you get your needs met is I get to be better than you. I'm okay, you're not. And you play this game with a switch.
Yvonne Heimann [00:11:35]:
As coaches, as entrepreneurs, as business owners, we see that regularly. Right? No matter if that is as a service provider, no matter if that is as a coach, if that is as a consultant, if that is as any type of quote, helping people. Right. We've seen this. We've seen the yeah, I've tried all the social media and it just doesn't work for me. Or I've done therapy before and it just doesn't work for me. It's always everybody else's fault. So we've seen those dynamics happening.
How do you get out of that dynamic?
Matthew Riven [00:12:14]:
And it's an answer that people just find sometimes frustrating. The only way to get out of the Cartman drama triangle of the rest were the victim, the persecutor and the constant switches is not to play, is not to get involved in the game. There's no easy way to get out of it other than to step into your adult ego state and just not play the game. So same example, the yes but game. You come to me and say, I need help with something. Have you tried this?
They won't work because of this. Have you tried this other thing? And I may have to just step out of the game by simply saying I don't have the ability to help you right now. I'm going to walk out of my way. Good luck. I may have to look at you and say, are you really looking for a solution? You seem to be turning everything I'm giving you down and I can stay an adult and point out what you're doing word of warning. The person you pointed out to may not be happy about that.
Yvonne Heimann [00:13:09]:
Oh, ain't that the truth. I'm like, I had a lead reach out to me. Just to give you a literally real life example, I had somebody reach out to me, a small agency, fresh startup, they had bought a ClickUp template and I spent, oh, God, 45 minutes, half an hour walk them through what's needed, how, where, what why. When she showed me the templates, all the things, and I go through my process that I do with every single lead, with every discovery, I give it my all. And like, here is what, here's why this is wrong, here's why this is not going to work and all the things. And it was, yes, but, yes, but. And we ended the call with me being completely exhausted and her pretty much saying she's not going to, quote, waste the 250 bucks that she spent on the template, even after I told her it's complete shit. Pardon my English.
It was one of the worst templates I've ever seen. And it happens with software as a service, it happens. There is so much out there. It just happens, right? And either way, you listen to somebody that know what they're doing or you're going to spend anywhere from 5 to 10k in the future to fix because you didn't want to listen at the beginning. And I have to admit, right after the call, I was pissed. I was in an energy where I'm like, are you motherfucking kidding me? I gave you an hour of my knowledge of my experience of nearly 10 years at this point with this tool and best practice and everything. And I stepped away, I took a deep breath and I'm like, this has nothing to do with me. There is.
Yvonne Heimann [00:14:49]:
It's a limiting belief. It's a money belief. Whatever it is, it doesn't even matter what it is. It has nothing to do with me. And I did exactly what you said. I emailed that, that CEO, I emailed that founder and I'm like, I'm sorry, you are not listening. I gave you all the data points, I gave you the exact steps that you need to do and told you that you rather write off the template because it's going to end up being a shit show and you don't want to listen. I.
We are not working with each other. You are not ready to do what needs to get done. And honestly, there was a little bit ego involved in that too, where I was like, you know what? Good riddance. I've done this back in the day with web design, you're going to be back in six to 12 months.
Matthew Riven [00:15:36]:
And it's a. It's a very common process. So when you don't recognize. And you and I have worked on this some, when you don't recognize what's.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:44]:
Going on, I want to rescue them.
Matthew Riven [00:15:46]:
You want to rescue them.
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:47]:
You want to go back and fix.
Matthew Riven [00:15:48]:
Them, and you want to rescue them. But they've already made the switch. You came out frustrated, so you had a game played on you. There was the con, there was the switch, and there was the payoff. The payoff is they got to think to themselves, nobody can help me, or Yvi's not all that good or whatever. They. They needed to think to be frustrated or to think that they're better than you. And you got your anger.
So you realized after the game had been played what happened, and you wrote them off and you separated, and just. That's their stuff, not mine. And you separated from them and said, I wish you luck. I'm not going to be able to help you. That's stepping out after the game. The next process is you're going to figure out when that game is going on, when either you're playing it or others are playing it on you. And what you can do earlier on is in that conversation before you got to an hour, and all the frustration you may have been 20 minutes into that conversation when you have to think to yourself, hang on now. I've given you a number of options.
They don't seem to be working. Are you actually looking for a solution? How can I actually really help you? Sometimes what somebody's wanting you to do, and we talked about this, they want you to care more than they do. I don't want to have to do any of the work. You please do. The solution.
Yvonne Heimann [00:16:59]:
That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah.
Matthew Riven [00:17:02]:
They want you to care more than they do.
Yvonne Heimann [00:17:06]:
So why. Why is.
Matthew Riven [00:17:08]:
Sorry, I was just gonna say, with so much of what I do, with the power dynamics, whether it's coming from the coaching, the business coaching, the individual coaching, whether it's the public speaking and everything, when it comes to power, there are a lot of times you simply have to care less than the other. And it's very hard to do because you want to do good work, you want to do well, you want to impress people, you want to get the contract, you want to do these things. But there are other times when, psychologically speaking, I need to care less than you do because you need to do the work and get things fixed.
Yvonne Heimann [00:17:43]:
I want to dive a little bit deeper into why does it matter that me as no matter if it's a service provider, if it's a coach, whatever it is, why does it matter that I care less than they do? Because I'm like, we want to work with somebody that cares about our business, right. That does everything they can to make us better.
Matthew Riven [00:18:03]:
It depends on the roles that are in place. So the roles can be. If you are being hired as a consultant to do the work, you need to do the work. But they also need to care enough to tell you what's going on. If they just look at you and say, make the ClickUp work and they don't give you any other piece of information.
Yvonne Heimann [00:18:22]:
There is no such thing.
Matthew Riven [00:18:24]:
There is no such thing. But you've done that. We talked recently about a client you had where you were trying to help them get through their. And I don't want to say too much, you were trying to help them get through a process and they weren't giving you the information. You needed to know what their processes.
Yvonne Heimann [00:18:37]:
Were, which is pretty much 75% of my clients. It just happens that way.
Matthew Riven [00:18:41]:
You care more sometimes than they do. You need them to care more to be able to say for me to get the effective use out of Yvi and ClickUp and the consulting that she's providing us, we need to provide her with this information. Here's the. Here's the interplay between those powers. I'll give you a couple of examples. Ballroom dancing. I used to compete in ballroom dance and I've had partners as I've been doing the social things or the social dancing. I've had partners who just want to be dragged around the dance floor and made to look pretty.
It's exhausting. It's not very good. For the people watching the dance, there's nothing really quality to watch. It doesn't draw anybody in. I'm exhausted holding somebody up. They're not giving me any energy on the other side. If they're back leading, they're telling me what to do, the problem becomes. Well, as it was stated, Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and wearing heels.
You're moving backwards down the floor. I can see what's in the way. You can't. You may be leading me back, leading me into a position where you're going to trip over somebody.
Yvonne Heimann [00:19:54]:
And we've had that. I'm like, in business, it shows up as we have somebody that hires us as an expert and Again, you should be watching on YouTube because you don't see my air quotations. Because so often they don't want your expertise. They don't want your expertise. They hire us as the expert and then tell us what to do.
Matthew Riven [00:20:11]:
They want you to care more because you're the expert. So they don't have to do anything. The best partner in ballroom is the two of you are actually working with each other. I'm putting pressure on you. You're actually also putting pressure on me. Not taking you control. Right. And those dances, when you find a partner to dance with like that, it's magical, it's amazing.
I can guarantee you everybody on the floor is watching you. Everybody watching the dance from outside is there wishing they were the woman being led by me. They're wishing they had the ability to lead a woman. Like it's all of these connections and powers because you're working together. In this case, you care equally. You need somebody when you're consulting who cares equally and not be like you're the expert, make it work. And I don't want to have to do anything to get you there. That's not going to work in a relationship.
You need to be the one to woo me. You need to be the one to impress me. You need to be the one to take me out and do all the things and to buy me this and to do all of that and to please me sexually and everything else. And I'm just going to sit back and take it. Because that's what you have to do to win my love. That's not a relationship, that's a game. It's manipulative. And in this kind of thing you don't want to be manipulated.
Yvonne Heimann [00:21:33]:
You're still going to buy dinner tonight though. Yeah, I was right there and I had to. Yeah. And it's now now because I've been there. I have a feeling that some of the audience listening or watching. Did I mention you should be watching this on YouTube? There might come the question up of great. And now I don't have any clients left. So yes, there is definitely some fear in there, don't get me wrong.
Especially when you start out with a business. I'm bringing it up because I have heard it so often and let me tell you, there's always enough people out there. The market is how big you need how many of those people in the market. Actually, I personally, from the coaching and consulting piece as well as the marketing piece, believe there's always enough people. You just gotta find the right people and I'm curious on your take if you guys have been listening to any of my past episodes. I'm really into energy, meaning I'm energy based a lot. Meaning if my client doesn't care enough themselves, I am not getting the energy to actually care enough. I might push for a little bit because I want to get them where I know they can be.
But if I don't get that energy back, if I don't get that excitement back, I start not giving a shit. So I suddenly don't deliver as much as I could. I'm not happy with what I deliver and it ends up being that spiral down.
Matthew Riven [00:23:13]:
Yeah, that happens.
Yvonne Heimann [00:23:14]:
And with that, I think where I'm going with this. First of all, let me tell you, there's always enough people. You just need to find them. There's literally people that make money with showing ant videos. Anything is possible. There's a market for everything. At this point, when I get into a situation where games are being, being done, where a client of mine might not align fully, is the only way really just step out and let it be. Is there something where we can make them see or is it really just a he's gonna get where I'm going with this or is it really just at that point what I call an ego trip, Meaning polishing my own ego, meaning wanting to be the knight in shining armor and am I just rescuing them?
Matthew Riven [00:24:11]:
It's gonna be all the above. So can you make them see the light?
Yvonne Heimann [00:24:18]:
I didn't even see that. I brought that one in.
Matthew Riven [00:24:19]:
Yeah, you brought that up.
Yvonne Heimann [00:24:20]:
Where this is going, you're gonna like this one.
Matthew Riven [00:24:22]:
You brought that one back up. You can't make anyone feel anything. You can't make anyone think anything. You can't make anyone do anything without physically doing something. You can't make anyone feel anything. So you've had that person at work, you've had that person in your life, that lover, the friend, the whatever who. Oh my God, they make me so angry. They're not making you so angry.
You are choosing to get angry based on something they've done. And that also means you can choose not to get angry. When it comes to the energy you get with a client, the energy you put out is the energy you're going to get back. Now, are there people in this world that you can put out the most amazing, incredible, oh, this is fantastic. Let's work together and be spectacular and they just don't. They're not picking it up. They're not going to do it. Yeah.
And the best thing you can do to prevent burnout and getting frustrated. Everything else is just turn that energy down and give them what they need and go find, finish up what you need. If you know, especially from the entrepreneurial route, keep the client long enough to get the revenue to do what you need to do to keep your company afloat. Go find other clients now. It's never going to get perfect. It's never going to get 100% better. You are never going to have only clients that you absolutely love working with. You're never going to find 100% of that.
Matthew Riven [00:25:43]:
You, if it happens, enjoy those couple of months because once some of those contracts finish up, you're going to replace them with contracts and people you just don't love working with as much. They're always going to have those types of things. You're always going to have people that you work with. I absolutely love working with him. I actually can survive working with her. Yeah. God, I don't like working with him. And you're going to find that with people you have put out the energy it needs to get the work done.
Don't worry about the fact that it's not all perfect all the time and take care of yourself while you're doing it.
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:22]:
I used to be stuck in a. In a spiral of chastising myself, for that matter, where I'm like, I'm not good enough to have the good clients. Where stress was normal, where I needed the drama and the adrenaline and just the shitty business, let's be honest, because it's the only thing I knew.
Matthew Riven [00:26:51]:
Cortisol is addicting.
Yvonne Heimann [00:26:52]:
Oh, fuck yeah.
Matthew Riven [00:26:53]:
Stress is addicting. The adrenaline rush is addicting for some people. They're adrenaline junkies. And again, we can go all the way back to family of origin. If your family of origin was pretty chaotic and the only way that you got attention was when things were chaotic and things were adrenaline filled. You're going to fill your life with things that keep that high going and it's tough to get rid of. But it doesn't even have to be from that. It's the stress of.
I'm so used to being stressed all the time. If I'm not stressed. There are some people who will subconsciously create stress in their lives just to keep it going. I think most people have done it, many without actually recognizing it or seeing it. So it starts being. Make yourself aware of it, understand what is yours, understand what is somebody else's and start putting. It's not a boundary of saying no, you don't have to look at somebody say, I'm not picking up your shit anymore. You can mentally internally say, I don't have to deal with that anymore or I can turn my energy down.
Matthew Riven [00:27:56]:
When I'm working with you, I recognize I'm not going to get this need match or that need met. We can get the job done. I may have to be a little more harsh with my language. I may have to be a little more specific with the way I'm saying something to make sure it gets through your thick skull. We all have people we work with like that and for other people it's easy and you're in synchronicity and everything just glides perfectly. So that's their energy. This is my energy and I can control this. No, I really want to get rid of this client.
And when I can replace them, I may let them go. Some clients are too expensive to keep.
I years ago had a consulting contract and on the way into the contract, it was going to be very, very lucrative for me. The way they were writing the contract, way the interaction was going and everything else. There was going to be no pleasing this client. It was going to be as lucrative as it was the amount of time it was going to take me, that hourly rate was going to plummet. The frustration was going to go through the roof. And I about halfway through the negotiation, said, you know what, this is not going to work for me. I appreciate your time. And I didn't pick up the contract financially, I regret it for a little bit.
But internally, oh my God, I was so much happier. So you are going to have to get rid of some clients along the way. But here's the other side. When you start no longer putting up with somebody's stuff, whether it's in the business or it's in your personal life, you're going to find people self select whether or not they want to work with you. I know you wanted to talk about that. Yeah.
Yvonne Heimann [00:29:39]:
There's these two pieces actually here. So on the coaching side of my business, one of the biggest things that comes up when I coach and consult with entrepreneurs is this because I come in when they scale, meaning they started out as a founder, they might have at this point one or two part time people and they're hitting their ceiling and they are still not fully stabilized in their finances, in their income. And what I see is this constant push and pull where it's like, yes, I know they're not somebody I actually want to work with, but I need you to pay my bills. But actually you just keep running in circles because you take the client to pay the bills, which then puts you in a situation that you put the clients you actually want to work with. You show up not with your full energy. You show up frustrated because you just got off a call that was just exhausting with somebody you don't want to work with. So you're not showing up fully 100% for the couple of clients you have you want to work with as well as them coming around, spending more time. You're not getting the hourly.
And it's a constant circle of running around, of not getting out of the situation. So I slightly disagree with you of replacing the income of the client that I don't want with. That happens fine on big contracts, but if it's for example, a service provider or an implementer on somewhat small but still paying for income, I have seen them literally run in circles, not getting out of that because they don't say no to that client and fire them early enough.
Matthew Riven [00:31:25]:
In that case, the dilemma starts to become, if I don't get rid of this client, I cannot show up with good energy and what it takes to draw in the better clients and the clients I want to work with. If I do get rid of the client, I'm going to be out of a job, I'm going to be out of a business, and I'll never get that other client anyway. So the response to that is you can't get rid of these clients. The only thing in this pattern that you can control is yourself and the way that you respond. There are very few can'ts in this world and a lot of time with my clients, I focus on the word can't, and I will have them replace it with won't. And it's tough because won't means you have to take your own internal responsibility for what's going on. So in the cycle you're just talking about, the only thing that your entrepreneur is going to be able to control is the entrepreneur is themselves. So you have the clients that are draining you.
What is it going to take for you outside of work to recoup your energy and to put yourself in a good place? What is it going to take for you in work to be able to handle this client in such a way that they're not so abusively draining to you? If it's getting out of the drama triangle, that's one thing. If it's limiting them in terms of the hours you can provide, or making sure that you're giving you the information you need to get your job Done in a more efficient and productive manner, then do that. But there's very few can'ts. So you're saying the next time I have a client and I'm searching for a client, I need to show up with good energy. What does it take for you to show up with good energy? Because energy is pretty much in many ways, not all, in many ways infinite. You can show up with immaculate energy a half an hour after the most horrible draining meeting. Figure out what it takes for you internally. Whether it's working with a business coach, whether that's working with a personal coach, a power coach, a life coach, me, or it's somebody else.
Matthew Riven [00:33:29]:
Figure out what it takes for you to. All right, you know what? That was a hell meeting. I need to take the shoes off and go walk outside in the grass for five minutes and feel the sunshine on my face. Wow. And like, great. And we also come back into that meeting to meet with that next client and show up with the energy that's needed so that the energy you're putting out is going to draw on the energy that you want back in. And these kinds of things, cleaning up yourself and controlling yourself is going to get you out of that spiral that's going to burn you out. It's going to stop any sort of business death spiral.
It's going to help you in your relationships at home with your spouse or your significant other. Because if you think about what you just described, it's not just trying to get the next client and not showing up with good energy. If you're that burned out, you're going up at, you're showing up at home burned out. And whether that's showing up at home burned out for your pets or whether that's showing up for your significant other or trying to find the significant other, or it's just for yourself to be able to go to the gym and do it efficiently and effectively and enjoy.
Yvonne Heimann [00:34:36]:
And not hurting yourself.
Matthew Riven [00:34:38]:
Without hurting yourself or struggling. Some people, again, the drama triangle and the family of origin, they don't know how to find the self soothing place. They haven't gotten through all the traumas you had growing up. And nobody gets out of childhood unscathed.
Yvonne Heimann [00:34:57]:
Oh no, nobody. And I'm like, we had moments where I don't even remember specific yet, but where I'm like, hey, do you have 10 minutes? Because I knew exactly the pattern. I knew exactly what I was doing. I just needed to snap out of it. And I knew, first of all, you know me well enough to know exactly which pattern I'm running without me even explaining it to you and helping me.
Matthew Riven [00:35:19]:
Oh, that annoys you so much. When I just see your face and I'm like, Yvi, you're thinking this.
Yvonne Heimann [00:35:23]:
It's literally. It's literally in some of the sessions, we are on a zoom call. He sees me. He sees my face and everything. And I didn't even realize. You see everything in my face. Right? Believe me, nobody needs to be worried about me stabbing somebody in the back. You will see my face first.
And in the middle of a zoom call, he's like, where did you just go? However, as much as I'm jokingly, jokingly about it, that's what I need. It's what I need. It's.
Matthew Riven [00:35:57]:
Everybody needs a good coach. Everybody needs somebody who knows them well enough to be able to say, where'd you go? What's going on? Why are you repeating this pattern? Hey, have you thought about this? Go take a walk barefoot on the grass and let the sun hit your face. What is it going to take for you to do? Everybody needs somebody like that. I don't care if you've been in business and it's 40 years you've been doing this and you're still on your multimillion dollar corporation you started 38 years ago or your fourth startup and you've sold the other three for a seven figure, seven bag return. You still need somebody to work with to be able to say, I'll just put it bluntly to catch you on your shit.